[Trade] Flames acquire Shane O'Brien and David Jones for Tanguay and Sarich

[AC]

I'm pretty excited for David Jones actually. His shooting percentage each season has been 17%, 26%, 18%, 15% and then 5% last year.

He's going to rebound and be fine. Watching his goal clips on NHL.com, he reminds me of David Moss... but faster, with a better shot, and better hands. That isn't a slight against Moss either, he's a very smart and solid hockey player.

[Dajazz]

I have no doubt Alex Tanguay is the superior talent compared to D Jones. As for organisational need, CGY had several small and skilled wingers in Bärtschi, Cammalleri, Hudler (also RW) as well as Glencross who prefers playing LW. Pretty much a log jam.

D Jones, while not as talented fills a need, even if he won't hit his 27 goals and playing rough and tumble style.

I am just concerned with the term. Cap hit I dont care, Calgary has plenty.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Jones has a fit in Calgary and Tanguay did not. That does not excuse that Jones contract is worse than Tanguays. It sets a bad precedent for other players that the flames will have to sign in the future.

Salaries for players are determined by league wide precedent in a lot of cases so who Jones plays for isn't particularly relevant if an agent is using him as a comparable.

So I don't really buy your argument here. An agent could have used Jones's contract as a comparable while he was still on the Avs. The precedent was set when the Avs signed Jones years ago not when we traded for Jones.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Jones is a fit on the ice because we have no RW prospects, and he will listen to the coach. He is not a fit off the ice due to his contract.

No matter what a teams presence is in the league, if the player is not a core player he should be tradeable in case moves need to be made. Jones contract is not tradeable. If you told me 2 days ago that a team would have picked up that contract i would have said you were nuts. I think the odds of him rebounding back to even a 20-20 player are not good.

Expectations are a funny thing.

The Flames are a team that generally spends to the cap. We have a ridiculous amount of cap space available. Doesn't it then logically follow that the Flames out of any teams in the league can afford to add a few suboptimal contracts? Especially in a deal where we are dumping a similar contract on an older player.

It's not like Jones is signed for 8 years. Worst case scenario if he's a total bust you could compliance buyout him next summer. If he's fine then he helps bridge the gap until we're looking to go for the cup. I think you're making too much out of this idea that you have that he is untradeable. We just traded for him so all the evidence is pointing to him being tradeable.

Cammalleri and Stajan have expiring contracts. We'll be absolutely swimming in cap space as well next summer unless Feaster signs or trades for some big tickets.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Salaries for players are determined by league wide precedent in a lot of cases so who Jones plays for isn't particularly relevant if an agent is using him as a comparable.

So I don't really buy your argument here. An agent could have used Jones's contract as a comparable while he was still on the Avs. The precedent was set when the Avs signed Jones years ago not when we traded for Jones.

Lets use this as an example:

Stempniak (ufa at the end of year), has a good season. Lets say 25-25 for 50 points. Lets say Jones gets 15-20 for 35 points. They both play a little PK and PP.

You don't think his agent ,when he walks into Feasters office and Feaster tries to low ball him, does not bring up what Jones makes?

Sorry, but agents use everything at their disposal when it comes to player contracts. Not saying that Feaster has to give Stempniak $4 million but its a small battle lost in the negotiation table.

[868904]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Lets use this as an example:

Stempniak (ufa at the end of year), has a good season. Lets say 25-25 for 50 points. Lets say Jones gets 15-20 for 35 points. They both play a little PK and PP.

You don't think his agent ,when he walks into Feasters office and Feaster tries to low ball him, does not bring up what Jones makes?

Sorry, but agents use everything at their disposal when it comes to player contracts. Not saying that Feaster has to give Stempniak $4 million but its a small battle lost in the negotiation table.

In that case having Jones makes Stempniak expendable at the deadline and if he's having that good a season, he'll return a second round pick, so then it's Tanguay for a second round pick. You don't have worry about re-signing Stempnik because you already have his replacement going forward, this is asset management.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Expectations are a funny thing.

The Flames are a team that generally spends to the cap. We have a ridiculous amount of cap space available. Doesn't it then logically follow that the Flames out of any teams in the league can afford to add a few suboptimal contracts? Especially in a deal where we are dumping a similar contract on an older player.

It's not like Jones is signed for 8 years. Worst case scenario if he's a total bust you could compliance buyout him next summer. If he's fine then he helps bridge the gap until we're looking to go for the cup. I think you're making too much out of this idea that you have that he is untradeable. We just traded for him so all the evidence is pointing to him being tradeable.

Cammalleri and Stajan have expiring contracts. We'll be absolutely swimming in cap space as well next summer unless Feaster signs or trades for some big tickets.

I don't like the argument that if you have cap space it is all right to just hand it out to players even if their play can not match it.

If we go by that, then why not give Butler $3 million since he will be on the team and we have space. Ramo played some NHL games way back when, could be our starter, we got cap space, might as well give him $4 million.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Lets use this as an example:

Stempniak (ufa at the end of year), has a good season. Lets say 25-25 for 50 points. Lets say Jones gets 15-20 for 35 points. They both play a little PK and PP.

You don't think his agent ,when he walks into Feasters office and Feaster tries to low ball him, does not bring up what Jones makes?

If Jones has comparable enough numbers that they look like they are similar players at a similar age, etc then yes the agent will use him as a comparable.

But if their numbers aren't that similar then the agent is going to compare his client to other players with similar numbers at a similar stage in their careers.

[868904]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I don't like the argument that if you have cap space it is all right to just hand it out to players even if their play can not match it.

If we go by that, then why not give Butler $3 million since he will be on the team and we have space. Ramo played some NHL games way back when, could be our starter, we got cap space, might as well give him $4 million.

I get what you are saying but honestly if a player is so concerned with making more than the next guy, I don't want him around. You can't build a team based on what one guy will do to compare his contract to another. Contracts move teams and the market is not as simple as a apple vs apple comparison.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I don't like the argument that if you have cap space it is all right to just hand it out to players even if their play can not match it.

If we go by that, then why not give Butler $3 million since he will be on the team and we have space. Ramo played some NHL games way back when, could be our starter, we got cap space, might as well give him $4 million.

We didn't just hand it out to Jones. Colorado signed Jones. Of course it doesn't mean we should overpay our own RFA's. That would be silly. I'm saying you can afford to overpay for a few UFA's or acquire a few overpriced players in the next few years of our rebuild because we won't be as tight to the cap. As long as you don't have any crazy long terms deals it shouldn't affect you ability to re-sign your rebuilding core.

So would you have been okay with the trade if Jones made 2.5 million and we paid 1.5 million of Tanguay's salary for the next few years? Cause that is the same bottom line to the Flames.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

We didn't just hand it out to Jones. Colorado signed Jones. Of course it doesn't mean we should overpay our own RFA's. That would be silly. I'm saying you can afford to overpay for a few UFA's or acquire a few overpriced players in the next few years of our rebuild because we won't be as tight to the cap. As long as you don't have any crazy long terms deals it shouldn't affect you ability to re-sign your rebuilding core.

So would you have been okay with the trade if Jones made 2.5 million and we paid 1.5 million of Tanguay's salary for the next few years? Cause that is the same bottom line to the Flames.

Again I'm okay with the trade on the ice. Off the ice i dont like Jones contract. I see him as a David Moss player. Moss i think gets $2 million a year.

What i would have liked was the Av's eating at leaast $1 million of Jones contract.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Lets use this as an example:

Stempniak (ufa at the end of year), has a good season. Lets say 25-25 for 50 points. Lets say Jones gets 15-20 for 35 points. They both play a little PK and PP.

You don't think his agent ,when he walks into Feasters office and Feaster tries to low ball him, does not bring up what Jones makes?

Sorry, but agents use everything at their disposal when it comes to player contracts. Not saying that Feaster has to give Stempniak $4 million but its a small battle lost in the negotiation table.

I think Jones' presence on the team will have SOME impact on the negotiations but it's going to be negligible. Fact is Jones signed his contract after a 10 goal in 23 game season, 27 goals, and 20 goals and it wasn't Feaster who signed him. Add in the fact that Jones was acquired in what can be seen as a salary dump deal, the fact that Jones is making $4M on the Flames has no standing.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by 868904

I get what you are saying but honestly if a player is so concerned with making more than the next guy, I don't want him around. You can't build a team based on what one guy will do to compare his contract to another. Contracts move teams and the market is not as simple as a apple vs apple comparison.

Wasn't this a rumored point of contention with Giordano last year when we signed Wideman to a more lucrative contract? And then Gio flat-out denied this was the case on multiple accounts. I think you have to give some credit to the players. Players are signed at different ages, during different team situations, and during different salary cap scenarios and free agent status'. Contracts are rarily comparable straight across the board.

[CliffFletcher]

It's far more likely that a 28-year-old produces at or close to his career high over the next three seasons than a 33-year-old does. The Avs are the team taking the bigger risk here.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's far more likely that a 28-year-old produces at or close to his career high over the next three seasons than a 33-year-old does. The Avs are the team taking the bigger risk here.

Jones will be 29 before training camp. Not that it makes a big difference, but since part of the pro argument is that we added "young" player, it is relevant. He won't be playing a single game as a 28 year old for this team.

And Tanguay doesn't need to produce near his career highs in order to make his contact worth it. For $3.5 million, producing at a 40 point range would be just fine for veteran with his experience. It's Jones who has to repeat career years in order to make his contract worth it.

In my opinion, Tanguay stands a much better chance of living up to his salary and cap hit than Jones despite their ages. I would have rather have put Tanguay on waivers and then if no one picked him up, agreed to take back a bad contract. I am pretty certain someone would have picked him up though.

Cap space is still an asset no matter how much you have. There are a lot of bad contracts to pick up for additional assets if that the way they want to do things.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Lets use this as an example:

Stempniak (ufa at the end of year), has a good season. Lets say 25-25 for 50 points. Lets say Jones gets 15-20 for 35 points. They both play a little PK and PP.

You don't think his agent ,when he walks into Feasters office and Feaster tries to low ball him, does not bring up what Jones makes?

Sorry, but agents use everything at their disposal when it comes to player contracts. Not saying that Feaster has to give Stempniak $4 million but its a small battle lost in the negotiation table.

It will only be relevant to when Jones' deal was signed. Should everyone who hits Lecavalier number expect his salary?

The deal has no more impact on Flames Players negotiations now, than it did when it was signed

[Alberta_Beef]

I am going to quickly share my thoughts on the deal and SOB v. Sarich and Jones v. Tanguay.


O'Brien vs Sarich

I think SOB for Sarich is a win, we get younger, more mobile and meaner. I love Sarich and wish he had retired a Flame, but this is definitely a moderate upgrade.


Jones vs Tanguay

Tanguay is a better offensive player, this much is clear but I am tired of hearing he is the "best" player in the deal, there is more to building a team and building a winner than mere point production. While Tanguay is better offensively I am not so sure he is better than Jones in any other area of the game. Jones is better defensively, a better penalty killer, has a better attitude, is bigger, stronger and more physical. I think it's actually was between the 2 players when you look beyond offensive numbers.



Ask yourself this. Who would you rather have in their prime? Stephane Yelle or Kristian Huselius. For me there is little doubt and I would choose Sandbox hands down.

[Plett25]

I don't think there would be much concern with Jones' contract if it was for 3 million. At 3 million, he's maybe a little overpaid for what he'll likely produce, but a pretty fair contact for his age and production.

So if he's overpaid by a million, is that a problem? we made the deal from a position of weakness trying to trade an older one dimensional player with a longer term contract who didn't really have a spot on our roster anymore. In that kind of deal a team usually has to overpay. And I think we all agree that the flames overpaid by taking on a contract that overpays Jones by a million.

But we're talking about a 1 million dollar overpayment, not a 4 million dollar overpayment. That one million isn't going to handcuff us for the foreseeable future.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Plett25

I don't think there would be much concern with Jones' contract if it was for 3 million. At 3 million, he's maybe a little overpaid for what he'll likely produce, but a pretty fair contact for his age and production.

So if he's overpaid by a million, is that a problem? we made the deal from a position of weakness trying to trade an older one dimensional player with a longer term contract who didn't really have a spot on our roster anymore. In that kind of deal a team usually has to overpay. And I think we all agree that the flames overpaid by taking on a contract that overpays Jones by a million.

But we're talking about a 1 million dollar overpayment, not a 4 million dollar overpayment. That one million isn't going to handcuff us for the foreseeable future.

Amen

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Ask yourself this. Who would you rather have in their prime? Stephane Yelle or Kristian Huselius. For me there is little doubt and I would choose Sandbox hands down.

Yelle at $4 million vs. Huselius at $3.5 million? (If you are making that comparison, you have to add the salaries/cap hits to the equation)

I was a huge Yelle fan, but if their salaries were comparable, I would have taken Huselius in his prime.

Jones also doesn't have the heart that Yelle had.