[Trade] Flames acquire Shane O'Brien and David Jones for Tanguay and Sarich

[devo22]

I don't see the deal as bad as some on here obviously do. After sleeping over it, I think it makes a lot of sense from the Flames' point of view. I certainly don't get the negativity from some here. Main points about this deal IMO (most of this stuff has been covered for sure, but I don't really want to go through 34 pages right now):

A) it has been lamented for a long time by MANY fans that the team has to get younger and bigger. Well, check and check. Jones (28) and O'Brien (29) are both five years younger than Tanguay (33) and Sarich (34). I really like Sarich, but the reality is that there's no upside left and he's at a point in his career where the only direction is downhill ... and it's also a very realistic scenario that Tanguay's best days are far gone, too.

B) Positionally, the Jones for Tanguay swap makes a lot of sense. Our depth on the right wing was virtually non-existent, especially right-handed players ... the only right-handed RWs were Stempniak and Jackman. No one can argue that Jones doesn't fill a need here, while we really had a logjam at LW. At least one had to go, and getting rid of Tanguay probably guarantees a top-six spot and a good chunk of PP time for Sven.

C) Jones scored 20+ goals twice for the Avalanche before he fell off the Earth last season. The sceptic in me says "well, he got paid big-time and didn't care afterwards", but the optimist in me thinks he probably just needs a change of scenery. The realist in me says the truth is probably somewhere in between ... he'll get a fresh start and a big chance in Calgary. It's a reclamation project, really, and there's always hope that he can re-gain his form.

D) Tanguay was obviously not willing to be part of a rebuild here in Calgary and at this point of his career, I kind of get that, although I had hoped he could be one of the veterans that would show the young guys the ropes. Well, he clearly wasn't, so he just had to go. A rebuilding team has no need for floating veterans and you could see it in his body language after Iggy was traded that his time in Calgary was over. To me, the return almost becomes non-significant if you can get rid of a player like that ... and I don't care how many points he scored for us over the last few years. He just wasn't a fit anymore with the team's new direction, and given that his contract was a big anchor, the return was never going to be overwhelming.

E) is this trade going to be a big win for us on-ice? Probably not. But the truth is that we are rebuilding ... we aren't going to be a very good hockey team for a few years. Some people on this board welcomed the Kiprusoff retirement because he would have stolen a few games for us next season and now that he's done, we will be worse and that speeds up the rebuild because we get a better draft position ... at least that's the argument I have read on here. Not exactly my opinion, but those who believe in this should probably be happy about this deal ... or at least indifferent. Personally I don't think this trade has a big impact on our performance next season.

F) the criticism on here about the contracts is really confusing to me. The Flames are nowhere near the cap and right now, they actually have to try to reach the cap floor (who would've thought this would ever happen? At one point a few years ago, we couldn't even ice a full 20 player roster due to cap trouble ...). This deal actually brings us 500k closer to the floor and gets rid of two NTCs. Yes, Jones' contract is bad, but it's the same term as Tanguay's and the guy is, as previously mentioned, a full 5 years younger. When the contract is over, Jones will still be younger than Tanguay is now ... so I don't see an issue here. By the time we can contend and spend to the cap again, this contract will no longer be there.

G) again, contracts: Calgary was widely known as "NTC heaven" some time ago. Well, it doesn't seem to be that bad anymore. The Flames have shipped out Iginla, Bouwmeester, Tanguay and Sarich, and with Kiprusoff's apparent retirement that's FIVE of those NTC/NMCs off the books within a couple months. The only players left with such clauses are: Cammalleri, Stajan, Glencross, Wideman and Giordano. Cammalleri and Stajan will come off the books after this season the latest, but with Cammy being part of trade rumours, I could see him gone much earlier. Glencross has earned the clause because he obviously took a huge paycut to stay in Calgary and Giordano is probably our next captain ... no big harm here. Wideman is debatable but the "give out clauses like candy" era finally seems to be over.

H) age is not really an issue anymore ... the 30+ club is gone. The oldest guy is now MacDonald at 33, which really isn't an issue for goaltenders. Cammalleri and Jackman are the oldest skaters with 31, while Stempniak, Wideman and Glencross are 30. That's it ... clearly different from the "old gang" that we had a couple years ago.

So yeah ... lots of things to like and dislike about this trade. I hope Jones can get back to 20 goals ... somebody here suggested a Glencross-Backlund-Jones line, I personally believe that this could be a very productive combination. Wait and see, I guess. I'm staying positive, that's for sure. I'm just glad the Flames are finally accepting their fate and are publicly talking about rebuilding.

[Daradon]

You've said all things I want to mention, and a few I didn't. Absolutely correct on all points.

If people are a little upset, it's just cause they were clearly overvaluing Tangs.

It's not an amazing trade in the fact that we don't really bring on any stars, but it makes sense and moves us in the right direction. Not sure why people would be upset.

[$ven27]

I find it humorous to see people go from 'Tanguay is the type of guy that can keep playing into his late 30s and still rack up points' to 'washed up, good trade feaster!'

[UKflames]

Personally I like this trade for lots of the reasons already mentioned. I think Jones is a good player and will fit well on our third line, possibly second, bang in some goals and some jam.

Not upset with this at all.

SBO i don't know a lot about so not bothered either way, he willl be a body on the back line probably third pairing.

[killer_carlson]

If sob plays on the third pairing, i am ok with that.

But his 20 point or so level of production puts him on the second pairing for us.

We need to upgrae the #4 d.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by LGA

He isn't that great defensively, and his propensity to kill plays didn't allow Stastny to use his strongest asset (playmaking and cycling)

Great. Not good defensively AND kills plays? This guy sounds like the sweater vest of hockey. He keeps the arms cold and the torso hot and itchy.

I hope he doesn't see a lot ice time with Baertschi as some people have pencilled him in for.

[GGG]

I like this deal. Tanguay was a bad season away from being a buyout candidate and at the deadline if he continued is inspired play from after Iggy was traded wouldn't have been worth anything. So we took a bad contract that runs until Tanguay is 36 for a bad contract that runs until 33.

If Jones can regain his 20 goal form we win the deal if he doesn;t we swapped dead cap space for others dead cap space. Tanguay is on the decline. Sarich is barely an NHL defensemen right now and we traded him for a 5/6 NHL defencemen.

I don't get people, we get younger and tougher, filled a position of need, got rid of a floater with a NMC and a bad contract and people are upset. Did people just want a 2nd round pick for him that had a 25% chance of turning into Jones and maybe a 5 % chance of being better than him? I know the draft is exciting but second round picks are 3 years or more away from making an impact. No one is talking about Seilof joining the team this year.

I think Jones makes our team more watchable next season and provides necessary size on the 2nd line to protect our smaller skaters.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

No, but they [Tanguay and Saric] are better players.

Completely disagree with this statement.

Players who have a higher skill level are not always the better player. A player who performs most consistently is the better player. This is the problem with both Tanguay and Sarich at this point in their careers. Tanguay is a guy who sulks too much and let's that affect his game. He completely disengages in games and is useless out there. I'll take a less skilled player who shows up more often over the talented player who disappears with regularity. I would rather have good work ethic as an example around young players than sulking whining veterans.

Sarich struggled to get into the lineup consistently. If this was Sarich of even three years ago I would agree with you, but this is the 2013-2014 Sarich and this model's engine is blown and there is rust showing everywhere on the body. O'Brien isn't a world beater, but he shows up every shift and is difficult to play against. He is an improvement over the guy who has spent as much time on pop corn row as he did in the line up.

This trade may work out for the Avalanche, but they are hoping that two old players start playing like the 28 year old versions of themselves rather than the mid 30s models they got. I also wouldn't want Tanguay anywhere near my team of young skilled forwards who may pick up his bad habits.

One last point to make, that is a general observation. If the Avalanche do improve from this deal that is a good thing for the Flames as well. That will be one less team they will have to leap frog over to get a top three pick next season.

[Flames_F.T.W]

I was/am baffled by the negativity over this trade. We got significantly younger, bigger and harder to play against while addressing our need on RW.... oh and also, the departure of Tanguay paves the way for Sven getting more ice time, especially on the PP. Sure, not a homerun trade, but I can't understand how people can argue against this being a win for the Flames

Also, Tanguay didn't want to be here through a rebuild and threw in the towel after Iggy was traded, so that was also addressed by this trade

[Hammertime]

We made out like bandits on this one, taking advantage of a situation with two relatively green managers in Denver who clearly have some notion of nostalgic ties to Tanguay and their 2001 cup win. Keep in mind that Tanguay had to approve the trade as well, and the Av's are not a cup contender.. so I wouldn't doubt the Sakic/Roy connection played heavily on Tanguay's decision.

Feaster took advantage of the situation.

[StrykerSteve]

People who watch the Avs suggest Jones' knee was blown, and that he can barely skate now. I guess we'll see.

[mkd_087]

I think Feaster and Co. did the right thing with this trade the more I think about it. I know the biggest thing we look at is stats and results (rightfully so), but we've heard it many times from everyone in management that the culture and heart of the team needs to be solid. Tangs for sure wasn't going to fit that mould and obviously Sarich felt the same if he was willing to be moved.

Yes, our team is going to see some challenges along the way with this rebuild, but that's exactly what a rebuild is, and it's what our club needs. However, with great hardworking/character players and big opportunities for the young and hungry prospects I think the Flames are going to become a very entertaining team to watch and one I'll be very proud of (regardless of where we finish).

Yes, proven talent never hurts, but if we have a team with a shared agenda (instead of a bunch of personal ones) I think we will see the payoff very quickly...and lets face it people, we have so much room to improve. This Sunday's Draft and next week's Free Agency is gonna be verrrrrrry interesting.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by LGA

Alright, I'm going to post my observations on Jones and SOB, for Jones it will be from the last 5-6 seasons, and from SOB it will be from his last year.

When Jones first came into the league he was one of my favourite players. He was surprisingly fast for a big guy, he had decent hands a good shot and a willingness to drive the net that was awesome. He was a real PK threat due to his combination of speed and size. However, at this point in his career he was also fantastically injury prone. As the years progressed, he lost some of that speed and his hands went from "shockingly good on occasion" to "why the hell can't you hold onto the puck?", however he managed to find his niche as a complimentary scorer. The injuries seemed to make him a bit gun shy, he didn't drive the net with nearly as much aggression and it severely limited his speed. His big production year came when he was on a line with Stastny and Stewart, now this was at a time when Stastny and Stewart were absolutely tearing things up, Jones really benefited from having Stewart driving the net and him being able to clean up the garbage. He was also a beneficiary of Stastny basically force feeding him goals. The most frustrating thing about Jones is that he is extremely streaky. When he is on a hot streak goals come easy, when he is on a cold streak you're cursing his name. Over the last few seasons he has also developed a strange habit (leading to many Avs fans joking that he must be boozing during the game) of falling all over the place. This combined with his mediocre hands led to many plays simply dying on his stick.

Now it's not all bad with Jones. He'll still surprise you every now and again with a big hit or a snipe, but it's not something that you should get used to. Hopefully, as a former fan of his game, he'll find that drive and determination that I saw during his first few years. He is at his best when he plays with reckless abandon, unfortunately he also seems to get injured whenever he plays this style of game.

SOB was a pleasant surprise at the start of last year. He wasn't great in any area of his game, but he was physical, decently mobile and was playing quite well. Unfortunately, when Sacco started feeding him more minutes his game began to fall apart. He looked good early because he kept his game simple, he was chipping the puck forward, moving it quick and playing a more conservative game. However, as the season went on he started to carry the puck more, and consequently lost the puck a lot more (when he went on these little expeditions we jokingly called him Shane Orr'Brien). I think that, with a good coach, SOB can make a good #6 defender. He is one of those guys that really needs a disciplinary breathing down his neck and keeping him under control otherwise he starts to become a detriment to the team. He seems to have a bit of a reputation throughout the league, so expect him to take quite a few penalties as well.

So there you have, my evaluations and observations of the two players you guys just acquired. You can ignore this, assume I'm an idiot, and that's perfectly fine. I personally really liked it as an Avs fan simply because it frees up the roster a bit. Sarich and SOB are pretty even IMO, I don't want either of them playing a major role on my team, and hopefully Sarich will be in the pressbox more often than he is on the ice. Jones seemed to only really be effective with Stastny, and I felt that he was dragging down Stastny's production. He isn't that great defensively, and his propensity to kill plays didn't allow Stastny to use his strongest asset (playmaking and cycling). Tanguay, hopefully reinvigorated, should make a good playmaking winger for Nathan MacKinnon (who they have stated they'll pick if they keep the #1).

I wish both Jones and SOB the best of luck, but I'm also very happy about this trade as an Avs fan.

Nice write up..... In Jones's 27 goal year according to behind the net his line,mates were Stasny, Duchense,Hedjuk and o'Rielly..... in that order.

Mackinnon is a bit undersized... at 5-11 180 .... If the Av's put him with Tanguay they will need to acquire a Jones type player to play RW on the line or hope that Downie makes a complete recovery.

Chances are that Mackinnon would get Landeskog as his LW.


I think that the Av's getting a small skilled LW tips their hand into picking Jones with #1 overall.


Also moving David Jones to the Flames clears up the 2 Jones on the same team.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by New Era

Completely disagree with this statement.

Players who have a higher skill level are not always the better player. A player who performs most consistently is the better player.

Completely disagree with this statement.

Lucic, Horton , Bickell, Penner, Handsuz are not consistent players at all. They performed very very much better in the playoffs.... when the games were important.

Sarich played better in the Playoffs throughout his career.

A player that raises his level in important games can be far more valuable than someone who performs consistently. Jay Bouwmeester is painfully consistent.... He hardly ever totally sucks BUT never steps up and plays better in important games.

Chris Butler played his best hockey of his career in the playoffs...... Would like to see that happen again.

[PeteMoss]

I know we all love Sarich... but this idea that he is still any good is a mystery. If he was any good he wouldn't have been getting scratched for guys like Derek Smith half of the year.

Most of the criticism here just strikes me as people overrating players you see all the time and seeing Jones play only when the Avs play Calgary.

Its not like Tanguay's some hot commodity around the league. He's been a free agent twice since 2009 and both times got one year contracts - 2.5 million from Tampa and 1.7 from Calgary.

[Badger Bob]

The added youth and size are great. Then there's the reduced payroll and the pure pleasure of being able to call one of our guys SOB.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by Badger Bob

The added youth and size are great. Then there's the reduced payroll and the pure pleasure of being able to call one of our guys SOB.

Don't disagree with you, but payroll actually goes up (by 500K), not down.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Most of the criticism here just strikes me as people overrating players you see all the time and seeing Jones play only when the Avs play Calgary.

I was thinking the same thing, but as a reason why people seem to be overrating Jones. Avs fans who have watched him for a long time haven't been nearly as high on him as the Flames fans who think this is a great move, but have hardly watched him.

The whole business about getting younger in moot. It's not like we added a player who has yet to peak - which is the point of getting younger. My only hope is that Jones rebounds enough that we can flip him again at some point. My fear is that by this time in 2 years, we will be packaging him up with a 2nd just to get rid of him like we did Kotalik.

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Don't disagree with you, but payroll actually goes up (by 500K), not down.

The SOB part is still a net positive then.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Sarich played better in the Playoffs throughout his career

Which was effectively over last summer when he was given his extension. He's a 34 year old 7th or 8th d-man.

Love Sarich, but O'Brien is an upgrade at this stage.