Conrad Black: Public-sector unions are a blight on our society

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by jammies

So I should assume from your posting history you're a sweatshop owner from Bangladesh? Do you seriously believe that the only way someone can disagree with you about unions is if they personally benefit from their existence?

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. You define everything as flowing from self-interest, so logically it follows that it's impossible anyone could hold ideals that don't directly benefit them. That you don't see that this doesn't hold - by simple observation of the world around you - and thus realize your premise is false, is baffling, but there it is.

Perhaps it is worth noting that I also have never been a member of a union. In fact, to the (admittedly very small) extent that I have practiced any labour law, I have always represented a (government) employer.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

LOL...seriously? You've never heard of employees being mistreated in office jobs? How about managers demanding OT on short-notice, or expecting employees to answer business emails and texts on personal time, without compensation?

exactly, the kind of evil management only a union can protect your from.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Pretty interesting thread. I'm not totally sure where I stand but both sides make compelling arguments. I'm not convinced there is a right answer either way though as there are some things I agree with on the "pro having unions" side and some points I agree with on the "abolish unions" side (which would never happen anyway).

It does seem like, however, lobbying is one of the most destructive erosional forces at play in society today. Both ways (corporations and unions).

What isn't sustainable is the ever increasing amount of money provincial governments are spending.

Make what you want of it, but at some point it will become a serious problem.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Azure

What isn't sustainable is the ever increasing amount of money provincial governments are spending.

Make what you want of it, but at some point it will become a serious problem.

Agreed, but I think a lot of people would be surprised at where and who the wasteful spending comes from.

[stanleycup1989]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

I've got a question for the Union Supporters:

Why is there such a strong general perception among the population that public-sector Unions breed laziness, corruption, and generally never work in the best interests of society?

Did corporations create those perceptions or do you think it has to do with the experience many people have working within Union Environments?

Kind of like how most Albertans continue to vote for the Conservatives because nobody else apparently can do the job. Misconceptions have a long life span.

[missdpuck]

Well, I think unions are great in theory. My union is friggin hilarious. So is our management.
For a while we were under "direct orders" to work 6 days a week. Have a dentist or doctor's appointment? Cancel it. Calling in sick with a migraine? Forget it. The only excusable absences are due to a trip to the emergency room or a death in the family.

But the guy who pees on the seat of his mail truck-and then on another occasion calls to say he crapped in his pants and has to come back to the office-gets whatever he wants.
Does he have some terrible medical condition? No, this game has been going on for years. If he needs 3 hours worth of help on his route, he gets it. He laughs like hell about it . He even threatened suicide when there were rumors they were trying to fire him. If anyone else asks for overtime, or god forbid might be 30 seconds late because he/she had to stop at the restroom, he/she is threatened with all kinds of discipline.
It's just great at the US Postal Service.
Now, in a sense I agree with peter12's point that a union can discourage its members from bettering themselves. It's not an official position of the union of course, as it provides scholarships for children of its members. But in practice, there is no encouragement for further education because you may end up in "management"! OMG!
If you say you want out of the place entirely, they will try to convince you that there's nothing better out there, even though they themselves feel it is a living hell.
There's an old movie with Richard Gere called "Blood Brothers" that illustrates this. His character wants to be a teacher, and that is highly offensive to his construction worker brethren.
Also see "Stand and Deliver" (Lou Diamond Phillips and James Olmos) where education is also seen as a threat to the status quo.

[CaramonLS]

While it can take upwards of 10 years for a new teacher to achieve a full time teaching position in the Greater Vancouver Area, FT teachers can have up to 20 absences in single school year before HR is even allowed to address the issue with them.

No, you won't be fired for missing that many days of work, that is only for your first talking to.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

I believe that under the current 'get what I want at the expense of everyone' model that many unions follow has outlived its usefulness.

The right to strike for one should be outlawed. Canada Post is according to recent reports going to face a $1 billion dollar loss by 2020 if changes are not made, and yet their workers still strike. Are the workers going to take salary cuts when the company can't meet their financial obligations anymore? Hell no. The taxpayer will just continue to help them bleed money.

Collective bargaining should be thrown out as well, and non-partisan arbitrators should be appointed to deal with public-sector employees, and their wages, benefits and other concerns they have. I have no problem if they come up with a contract, and every 4-5 years renew it, but collective bargaining should not be allowed. Unions hold governments hostage, and on the flip side the governments awards unions with unilateral pay increases in exchange for votes.

Constant audits should be done to weed out employees who do not preform according to expectations, and employees that do should be rewarded.

It is nice when people join the public sector because they believe it is their duty to serve the public interest, but not all people are driven by that. There has to be some incentive to preform better, and consequences if you don't.

Public sector unions are accountable to the taxpayer, and considering how many provinces are dealing with budget shortfalls, something needs to be done about public spending provincially before it becomes a problem we can't deal with anymore.

Yeah, I get all that. So who should be responsible for disbanding the unions? What's the name of the government organization that shuts them down? Is it the RCMP?

And how much prison time should be given to people who strike?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

What public sector unions have had their wages shoot up 120%. I got a spit in the face of 1.5%. Inflation was 2.46% last year and 2.62% the year before that. It would seem to me that despite having a union, public sector employees are having a decrease in their standard of living.

Boohoo. I took an 8% cut in my net commissions 2 years ago in my non unionized job. Basically the 3 guys in my department take a cut of the departments profits. And I still made more last year than the previous 2 years. It is kinda magical, when you aren't padded by a ineptitude protection system (aka union) you tend to find ways to make more money, work smarter and make it work. I made more money for the company, and for myself. Do I agree with it? Of course not. But from the owners point of view, he won on both ends. I guess when I have 20 million dollars to open my own dealership, I can complain.

In a union where everything is guaranteed, nobody cares about the bottom line and nobody cares if the company fails or not. Regardless of their "Oh we care so much" commercials they always have, all unions care about is one thing, themselves. They couldn't care less if their employers are haemorrhaging money. There is zero pride amongst unions, because there doesn't need to be. You can get away with murder, and still remain employed.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by pylon

Boohoo. I took an 8% cut in my net commissions 2 years ago in my non unionized job. Basically the 3 guys in my department take a cut of the departments profits. And I still made more last year than the previous 2 years. It is kinda magical, when you aren't padded by a ineptitude protection system (aka union) you tend to find ways to make more money, work smarter and make it work. I made more money for the company, and for myself. Do I agree with it? Of course not. But from the owners point of view, he won on both ends. I guess when I have 20 million dollars to open my own dealership, I can complain.

In a union where everything is guaranteed, nobody cares about the bottom line and nobody cares if the company fails or not. Regardless of their "Oh we care so much" commercials they always have, all unions care about is one thing, themselves. They couldn't care less if their employers are haemorrhaging money. There is zero pride amongst unions, because there doesn't need to be. You can get away with murder, and still remain employed.

I wouldn't be bragging about it and since you agree with your employer taking another 8%, he'll probably figure you're ready for another 8% cut. At some point it's going to hurt and at another point it's going to turn your job into wondering why you do it.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I wouldn't be bragging about it and since you agree with your employer taking another 8%, he'll probably figure you're ready for another 8% cut. At some point it's going to hurt and at another point it's going to turn your job into wondering why you do it.

Spoken as a true union guy.

The business model had changed, and we had to give something up to help another department as their dept had their margins cut substantially at the manufacturer level, it's what was the right thing to do, as we have no control over manufacturer set pricing. We did what was fair for everyone. See, if it was a bunch of union guys, they would have sooner just saw the whole business burn to ground so they got what they felt was owed to them. We agreed to a solution that was fair for everyone, without the threats, and bullying of a union.

Unions do nothing good for business, and have all but ruined any chance North America will ever have to be competitive again. The unions nearly destroyed the Big 3 automakers. I don't care what anyone says, nobody deserves more than 15 bucks an hour to screw in the same 5 screws over and over, let alone 70 something dollars per hours after benefits. A subway sandwich artist is more skilled than that. The unions sit there with their Alerican flag waving commercials saying how proud they are, yet for decades, the products they built sucked ass because A) They were poorly skilled lazy bums who couldn't even do a monotonous task a 5 year old could handle correctly. B) they were so over paid, the big 3 had to make massive quality concessions to be able to turn anything the remotely resembled a profit.

There was NOBODY to blame other than the unions for what happened to the Auto Industry, and the destruction and crime ravaged ghost towns that were left in it's wake. Every single Auto Union worker has that blood on their hands right down to all the people being murdered in those cities. Their greed and ransom tactics destroyed an industry the Americans once owned and they made a huge dent in the devestation of the American economy.

Unions can GTFO and EAD.

[Brannigans Law]

I don't get all the hate on unions and I also question some of the blind love for them. I don't support unions perse, I support collective bargaining. Collective bargaining gives power to workers in a situation where business holds all the chips on the table.

Originally Posted by pylon

Spoken as a true union guy.

The business model had changed, and we had to give something up to help another department as their dept had their margins cut substantially at the manufacturer level, it's what was the right thing to do, as we have no control over manufacturer set pricing. We did what was fair for everyone. See, if it was a bunch of union guys, they would have sooner just saw the whole business burn to ground so they got what they felt was owed to them. We agreed to a solution that was fair for everyone, without the threats, and bullying of a union.

Unions do nothing good for business, and have all but ruined any chance North America will ever have to be competitive again. The unions nearly destroyed the Big 3 automakers. I don't care what anyone says, nobody deserves more than 15 bucks an hour to screw in the same 5 screws over and over, let alone 70 something dollars per hours after benefits. A subway sandwich artist is more skilled than that. The unions sit there with their Alerican flag waving commercials saying how proud they are, yet for decades, the products they built sucked ass because A) They were poorly skilled lazy bums who couldn't even do a monotonous task a 5 year old could handle correctly. B) they were so over paid, the big 3 had to make massive quality concessions to be able to turn anything the remotely resembled a profit.

There was NOBODY to blame other than the unions for what happened to the Auto Industry, and the destruction and crime ravaged ghost towns that were left in it's wake. Every single Auto Union worker has that blood on their hands right down to all the people being murdered in those cities. Their greed and ransom tactics destroyed an industry the Americans once owned and they made a huge dent in the devestation of the American economy.

Unions can GTFO and EAD.

I was going to post an angry rebuttal but I gave myself 10 minutes of cooling off. I'll just say this; what sank the auto industry and what sank a lot of businesses over the last several decades is a continuing war on the middle class. It's not a purposeful effort by big business and it's not evil: it's a grim reality of thousands of really really big companies looking out for themselves. When you freeze wages, slash wages, and ship good paying jobs overseas to sell a cheap product and compete with slave labour overseas (some of which you caused to begin with) you can make your business and product very competitive and appealing.

But what happens when all the other corporations and businesses do the same? Where will your customers come from? Big business over the last 3 or 4 decades have failed to realize their actions aren't in a vaccuum... they form a mosaic with all pieces coming together. This mosaic is an economy where we don't produce anything but cheap crap and have low paying jobs for everyone. No one can afford anything anymore without a family where everyone works and cuts corners. People are in debt. It's unsustainable and no one is going to take ownership of the situation because it's a death by a million cuts. The only defence we have against this is collective bargaining, because our politicians on each side of the border have long since sold their souls.


edit: http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederic...twice-as-much/

A well written article regarding German automakers. They're unionised as well, pay twice as much as American companies, and are hugely profitable.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

edit: http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederic...twice-as-much/

A well written article regarding German automakers. They're unionised as well, pay twice as much as American companies, and are hugely profitable.

I'd like to see some raw data to back up the conclusions of that article. Seems to me that basic math dictates that Germany's labour productivity in auto manufacturing must be at least double that of USAs. Maybe their employees are more motivated because of the work councils, but it seems unlikely. I'd guess using fewer man-hours per car produced would account for a big chunk of the difference.

[Brannigans Law]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...734221046.html

Japanese car makers making good money with unions too and giving bonuses.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

Spoken as a true union guy.

The business model had changed, and we had to give something up to help another department as their dept had their margins cut substantially at the manufacturer level, it's what was the right thing to do, as we have no control over manufacturer set pricing. We did what was fair for everyone. See, if it was a bunch of union guys, they would have sooner was fair for everyone, without the threats, and bullying of a union. just saw the whole business burn to ground so they got what they felt was owed to them. We agreed to a solution that

Unions do nothing good for business, and have all but ruined any chance North America will ever have to be competitive again. The unions nearly destroyed the Big 3 automakers. I don't care what anyone says, nobody deserves more than 15 bucks an hour to screw in the same 5 screws over and over, let alone 70 something dollars per hours after benefits. A subway sandwich artist is more skilled than that. The unions sit there with their Alerican flag waving commercials saying how proud they are, yet for decades, the products they built sucked ass because A) They were poorly skilled lazy bums who couldn't even do a monotonous task a 5 year old could handle correctly. B) they were so over paid, the big 3 had to make massive quality concessions to be able to turn anything the remotely resembled a profit.

There was NOBODY to blame other than the unions for what happened to the Auto Industry, and the destruction and crime ravaged ghost towns that were left in it's wake. Every single Auto Union worker has that blood on their hands right down to all the people being murdered in those cities. Their greed and ransom tactics destroyed an industry the Americans once owned and they made a huge dent in the devestation of the American economy.

Unions can GTFO and EAD.

This might be the most cliched, ignorant, hilarious, nonsensical rant I've witnessed on here. Kudos.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by pylon

Unions do nothing good for business, and have all but ruined any chance North America will ever have to be competitive again. The unions nearly destroyed the Big 3 automakers. I don't care what anyone says, nobody deserves more than 15 bucks an hour to screw in the same 5 screws over and over, let alone 70 something dollars per hours after benefits. A subway sandwich artist is more skilled than that. The unions sit there with their Alerican flag waving commercials saying how proud they are, yet for decades, the products they built sucked ass because A) They were poorly skilled lazy bums who couldn't even do a monotonous task a 5 year old could handle correctly. B) they were so over paid, the big 3 had to make massive quality concessions to be able to turn anything the remotely resembled a profit.

Big corporations do nothing good for society and have all but destroyed the middle class. The Banks nearly destroyed the American housing market millions of people lost everything because of Greed. I don't care what anyone says, nobody deserves tens of millions of dollars for putting their own countries citizens out of work by moving jobs off-shore in order to make even more obscene margins. Corporate American sits there waving their made in China American flags saying how proud they are, yet for decades they've put profits ahead of all else. They pay themselves bonuses while their companies flounder, all the while expecting their workers to pay for their bad decisions.

Huh, it's pretty easy to go all hysterical and irrational. Doesn't make anything that I've written true necessarily, but the same can be said for your post.

[rubecube]

*BUMP*

Man, look at all that wasteful spending on/by unionized employees...oh wait.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Chr...982/story.html

VICTORIA — Fresh from an election victory, Premier Christy Clark’s BC Liberal government has significantly increased the maximum salaries it can pay to its top political staff.

A cabinet order signed June 3 boosts the maximum salary that can be handed to Clark’s chief of staff by 18 per cent, up to $230,000 per year.
Clark’s deputy chief of staff can now also make up to $230,000, representing a boost of almost 60 per cent from the position’s previous cap of $144,000.

Passed by Clark’s outgoing cabinet, the executive order also reclassifies the top aides to several ministers, elevating them from ministerial assistants to chiefs of staff, and allowing for a maximum salary of $105,000 — higher than the base salary now given to MLAs.

[CaptainYooh]

I read all of the comments in this thread and I tell ya, guys, 20 years ago I was as against unions as it gets. These days, I am not as aggressive about it at all. There are a lot of crap going on within the unions and I think their influence over progressive corporate development is mostly negative due to high demands and relative intolerance to market fluctuations. But... In my line of work, if you want a job done on budget and on tight schedule, get the unionized contractor, if you can. They will do it.

I don't believe that market will eventually regulate itself to an equilibrium of fairness all by itself. It will not. People will always work at below average, below acceptable and below human conditions, if they MUST work to survive. This is a reality no matter how much extreme right-wing theories preach against it. Unions were a great achievement in their time, I believe, as they were the only force pushing back. In modern times, not so much, unfortunately, as they themselves have become corporations within corporations.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't have a problem with a union protecting the weak and down trodden and acting almost like a oversight committee.

I have a lot of problems with the way the laws are written in terms of unionization. I have a lot of problems with the political action arms of unions, I have a ton of problems with Unions allowing lousy workers to survive and go unpunished.

I have problems with a lot of the public service unions and their mandates and the entitlement generation that they've created.

I think there's a place for unions especially in manufacturing and dangerous workplaces.

But I think that things have progressed to a point now where people have options in terms of protecting themselves in the workplace.

The whole concepts of unions really needs to be reformed and changed, in this day and age they need to work in concert with the employers not against them.

[chemgear]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/25/tdsb-sick-days/

New figures from the Toronto District School Board show a 22% spike in teachers reporting in sick last month compared to the previous year, and a 53% jump from three years ago.