Flames 2013 Draft Discussion

[dammage79]

I do believe that Nichushkin is worth the risk. The Size and Speed and hands are too good to pass. Just means that the other two picks will need to be used to get a center.

Which could mean trading up to grab Wennberg or Horvat or Lazar (Which IMO is easier to do when adding roster players for trade). It's a draft and like others have said its a crap shoot if any player makes the big show and will make an impact. If they take Nichushkin I will be just as excited (if not more just for the fact they got over the fear of taking Russians) as I would be if they take the other two players in Monahan and Lindholm. FWIW I do see Nichushkin on a level above the other two players but that is just one persons opinion.

[moon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Some sources said he interviewed fine and that there was an issue with the translator in some situations. Honestly, a lot of these Canadian and American kids have been trained and conditioned on how to answer questions and interview properly, that I am not sure how much it matters. Unless Nichushkin flipped them off or did something downright disrespectful, I am not worried. If it was a simple matter of not being able to answer questions fluently or properly, then no biggie.

How would anyone know there was an issue with the translator?

Sounds like a convenient excuse by Nichuskin's camp after he interviewed poorly.

Also, there are no questions about his contract. If he doesn't make the NHL, he will go to Moscow and play for a year. Swedish players have done similar things in the past and it was never an issue.

The difference is that there is a binding agreement between the SEL and NHL so very easy to bring those guys back if they do go over. The KHL-NHL relationship not so rosy.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by moon

It would be much easier to live with than if he turned into the next Filatov and Monahan turned into the next Toews.

As someone who hates Feaster and expects him to f up at every turn I wouldn't hold it against him at all on passing up a risky guy like Nichuskin and going with the safer and equally talented Monahan/Lindholm.

If we were talking 22 and Nichuskin was clearly the best guy then I may be pissed but considering he isn't clearly better than others at the same spot (and may be less talented than Monahan) no reason to get angry if he is skipped with all of his question marks.

Exactly how many scouts have said Monahan = Nichushkin? You may not like him as a prospect, or worry about his 'Russian Factor', but there is NO WAY that Monahan = Nichushkin. Nichushkin at this stage is definitely the more elite player, as evidenced by his constant hire rating, and 'whispers' that he might end up topping this draft class as the best skater. Russian Factor is a huge reason why he is being knocked down.

Nichushkin has a WAY hire ceiling than either Monahan or Lindholm. You can argue what the floor is, but the consensus amongst scouts out there is that talent-wise, Nichushkin IS elite, and many feel Monahan and/or Lindholm may only top out as very good 2nd line centers. I think Monahan and Lindholm will most likely develop into top line centers, but there ceilings are without a doubt lower than Nichushkin's.

Originally Posted by moon

How would anyone know there was an issue with the translator?

Sounds like a convenient excuse by Nichuskin's camp after he interviewed poorly.



The difference is that there is a binding agreement between the SEL and NHL so very easy to bring those guys back if they do go over. The KHL-NHL relationship not so rosy.

The issue with the translator didn't come up from Nichushkin's camp. It came up from Russian speaking fans who heard one of his interviews on TSN during the combine, and they stated that the translator was abysmal in not only translating his thoughts, but also the 'emotions' as well. I don't speak Russian myself, but that seems to be a bit of a consensus going there, but it may explain a thing or two.

Also, his contract status has been 'cleared up'. Dynamo paid a hefty fee for this kid, thinking he would play in the KHL for two years. He spoke with them and managed to wiggle out of the deal as long as if he doesn't make an NHL roster, he MUST return and play for them rather than the AHL. Seems fair to me, and development wise, seemed to be pretty good for Malkin, no?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by RyZ

I understand all that, but didnt Kuznetsov go 28th or something in his draft year witha similar KHL stat line? Im just saying, thats not a potential 1st overall guy.

Yakupov did a point per game pace in the KHL 1 year older than V nutz. Nich just put up 15 pts in 43 KHL games this past season (reg season and playoffs combined). Im not saying hes garbage, just commenting on people thinking he would 1st overall if he were Canadian.

It is difficult to just stat-watch. Ovie's and Malkin's numbers didn't blow anyone out of the water, but they were consensus very high picks, and rightfully so according to the players they have become.

KHL is a more defensive and lower-scoring league, and these are 'kids' playing with men. Just like most rookies in the NHL don't have fantastic stat lines, neither do these kids as rookies in the KHL. You really have to get some eyes on them and compare how they are vs prospects in other leagues.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Exactly how many scouts have said Monahan = Nichushkin? You may not like him as a prospect, or worry about his 'Russian Factor', but there is NO WAY that Monahan = Nichushkin. Nichushkin at this stage is definitely the more elite player, as evidenced by his constant hire rating, and 'whispers' that he might end up topping this draft class as the best skater. Russian Factor is a huge reason why he is being knocked down.

Not sure exactly how many think that but I have read plenty of reviews and lists that have him behind both Monahan and Lindholm. And I like Nichuskin just fine and have for awhile. I was impressed with him after the WJHC and have said good things about him on this site since then.

Thinking that he is at the same talent level as Monhan is not the same as 'not liking him" as a prospect.

He certainly is not "definitely" the more elite level player. Some think it, some don't but it is far, far from definite.

Nichushkin has a WAY hire ceiling than either Monahan or Lindholm. You can argue what the floor is, but the consensus amongst scouts out there is that talent-wise, Nichushkin IS elite, and many feel Monahan and/or Lindholm may only top out as very good 2nd line centers. I think Monahan and Lindholm will most likely develop into top line centers, but there ceilings are without a doubt lower than Nichushkin's.

That is not the consensus at all.

The issue with the translator didn't come up from Nichushkin's camp. It came up from Russian speaking fans who heard one of his interviews on TSN during the combine, and they stated that the translator was abysmal in not only translating his thoughts, but also the 'emotions' as well. I don't speak Russian myself, but that seems to be a bit of a consensus going there, but it may explain a thing or two.

Interesting to hear where it came from as it seemed unlikely that anyone would know if the translator was needed. Still seems fairly iffy in terms of an excuse but I guess it could be plausible.

Also, his contract status has been 'cleared up'. Dynamo paid a hefty fee for this kid, thinking he would play in the KHL for two years. He spoke with them and managed to wiggle out of the deal as long as if he doesn't make an NHL roster, he MUST return and play for them rather than the AHL. Seems fair to me, and development wise, seemed to be pretty good for Malkin, no?

I know his contract is cleared up now but that doesn't mean that can't change if he goes back to the KHL and signs a new deal. If Lindholm goes to SEL pretty safe to bet that he comes back easily if Nichuskin goes back not nearly the same assumptions can be made. I am sure that Nashville having a contract with Radulov seemed like his situation was "cleared up" at the time.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

The issue with the translator didn't come up from Nichushkin's camp. It came up from Russian speaking fans who heard one of his interviews on TSN during the combine, and they stated that the translator was abysmal in not only translating his thoughts, but also the 'emotions' as well. I don't speak Russian myself, but that seems to be a bit of a consensus going there, but it may explain a thing or two.

I was going to say the same thing. Also, it was Ross McLean from ISS who said on the radio that he interviewed poorly. That is hardly a league-wide concensus. Without specifics, it's meaningless. A native speaker has a huge advantage in an interview.

[bubbsy]

Jason Gregor ‏@JasonGregor 23m ]"I'm not a very physical player. I'm 6'3", but I play like I'm 6'1". I need to start to play like I'm 6'3"." Barkov. How awesome is that.
Retweeted by Brian Lawton

haha

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

[URL="https://twitter.com/JasonGregor"][B]
haha

Isn't that a bit like hockey sense though either you play like your 6'3" or you don't. Nothing against Barkov, but it's not like you get out of bed that morning and say today and every day after I will play like I'm 6'3" and then go ahead and do it.

[bubbsy]

i thought it was a funny way of saying that he is physical but that there is still room for him to play even more physical.

[nik-]

I want him to sharpen the butt end of his stick so he can effectively spear people.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

i thought it was a funny way of saying that he is physical but that there is still room for him to play even more physical.

You are likely correct a language learning.

Not like I've heard Barkov hates the corners of the rink and will never ever go there, but then again I've never heard he plays mean and determined every shift either. Again not like I don't like or like Barkov.

[robaur]

Valeri Nichuskin is the answer to our prayers. Simple.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by robaur

Valeri Nichuskin is the answer to our prayers. Simple.

Ok, Bingo and Jiri will insure to pass along your simple suggestion to Jay. He will be pleased to know this I'm sure.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

Isn't that a bit like hockey sense though either you play like your 6'3" or you don't. Nothing against Barkov, but it's not like you get out of bed that morning and say today and every day after I will play like I'm 6'3" and then go ahead and do it.

Of course he can, he's 18 years old....he's still a new dog.

And he doesn't have to flip a switch...realizing he needs to do it is probably the biggest part IMO.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Of course he can, he's 18 years old....he's still a new dog.

And he doesn't have to flip a switch...realizing he needs to do it is probably the biggest part IMO.

That would be the same idea as Reinhart is only 22 he's still a new dog he can learn to pop 50 goals a year like Stamkos.

He doesn't have to flip a switch....realizing he needs to score 50 goals to make 9.5MM a year is probably the biggest part.

I think easier said then done to honest, but hey Barkov could be the next Bergeron, win faceoffs, and score timely goals. Maybe he doesn't have to play 6 3. I'm not saying he has to I'm sure he has many more talents or he wouldn't be regarded as a top 5 prospect in this draft.

[Roof-Daddy]

I've really, really enjoyed all the draft discussion, but after three months of yakking in circles, I am soooooo ready for the actual draft.

9 more sleeps.

[JurassicTunga12]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I've really, really enjoyed all the draft discussion, but after three months of yakking in circles, I am soooooo ready for the actual draft.

9 more sleeps.

It feels like it is taking one hundred billion years to get to June 30.

So excited for the draft!

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by _Q_

For arguments sake, I think the Flames list, if they were going to go BPA, but picking according to need if they are close is something as follows:

1. MacKinnon - Best player in the draft and is a centre. The Flames take him without a doubt if he's available where they are picking.
2. Jones - Top defenceman, which is another glaring hole for the Flames. May take longer to develop, but will probably be a 2 two pairing defenceman down the road.
3. Drouin - High scoring forward. Might be the most skilled guy in the top 3, but is a LW and is a tad small. Though other teams might have him #1, he's close enough to the other two above him that he would be Flames 3rd choice because of organizational needs.
4. Nichushkin - Similar to Drouin, but with more size and plays RW which the Flames desperately need. Would probably be ranked above Drouin if he wasn't Russian. Has the skill to be #1 over-all.
5. Barkov - Big, skilled 2 way centre. Might be exactly what the Flames need. Just a touch less skill than the top 4.
6. Nurse - Might develop into the best defenceman in the draft which is something the Flames need.
7. Monahan - See Barkov, but with less skill. Maybe more of an unknown since he was the #1 guy on a poor team, logging in huge minutes. Does that inflate his stats a bit? See Iginla for comparison of an average player getting points because of being on a poor team. Might top out as a 2nd line player, which the Flames have lots of.
8. Lindholm - Same as Monahan albeit, with a different type of skill set. Is a tad small and is currently playing LW, which the Flames don't need.

Disagree on Barkov. He's no less skilled than your top 4 and should slot in at #2 or #3 on our list if you prioritze need. Barkov is an elite talent right up there with anyone in this draft.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by moon

Not sure exactly how many think that but I have read plenty of reviews and lists that have him behind both Monahan and Lindholm.

I know his contract is cleared up now but that doesn't mean that can't change if he goes back to the KHL and signs a new deal. If Lindholm goes to SEL pretty safe to bet that he comes back easily if Nichuskin goes back not nearly the same assumptions can be made. I am sure that Nashville having a contract with Radulov seemed like his situation was "cleared up" at the time.

Long reply - and not everything here is directed at you Moon. Just a throwing a lot of thoughts I have into this post.

Contract - In Radulov's case, it was more because of Radulov than anything else. Malkin got out of his contract. Nichushkin seemed to have gotten out of his contract (with the only stipulation being NHL 1st, KHL 2nd), so that doesn't concern me too much (as long as the Flames follow-up with his KHL team and confirm this themselves - due-diligence after-all).


Rankings:
http://www.mynhldraft.com/2013-nhl-d...spect-rankings

This is an amalgamation of lists from various notable sources. Only McKeen's (Lindholm 4, Nichushkin 6) and Grant Sonnier ESPN (Lindholm 5th, Nichushkin 6) have Lindholm ahead, and nobody seems to have Monahan ahead.

Lowest Nichushkin appears in the rankings is actually 6th, with some placing him in the top 4. Monahan appears as low as 11th (McKeen's - that list seems really whacky though with Morin, Domi, Zadorov all ahead of Monahan).

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...-rankings.html
Hockey news has Nichushkin 4, Monahan 6, Lindholm 7

Full consensus? Not exactly, but it seems all scouting services are ranking Nichushkin ahead of Monahan, with only 2 that I came across ranking Lindholm ahead. Monahan and Lindholm against one another seem fairly flip-flopped.

Most write-ups are saying that Nichuskin is an 'elite' player with a very high ceiling, but 'careful of the Russian factor'. We have all heard rumblings that Nichushkin COULD end up being the best skater in this draft, even ahead of MacKinnon, Drouin and Barkov, though Nichushkin is guilty of being 'inconsistent' (but few prospects aren't at that age). It seems MacKinnon, Drouin, Barkov and Nichushkin have all been labeled as the 'potential best forward' out of the draft, but I heard no such thing about Monahan or Lindholm (and really, could have just missed it, though Nichushkin is usually joined with that first 'elite' tier, but the riskiest pick from that tier, with Monahan and Lindholm forming the start of the 2nd tier).

Read enough reports on Monahan, and it becomes more mixed. Some say he will be a very good 1st line center, others are saying he will top out as a second line center. Either way, the average has him being a 'great' but not 'elite' player. Definitely a guy ANY team would love to have, and a guy that helps any team win with all the intangibles he brings in addition to his skill.

Still, these are all projections, and there are reasons why some players exceed projections, and others never come close to meeting them. It is very understandable why one would choose either Monahan, Lindholm or Nichushkin over each other, but in terms of sheer ceiling, Nichushkin seems to have the highest, but is seen as the riskiest pick. Lindholm seems like the next highest offensively, and Monahan is seen as the next (but COULD potentially become something special as his point totals were also had on one of the worst teams in the OHL).

I myself would not be disappointed in the Flames drafting any of the 3 above. I preferred Lindholm originally, started favoring Monahan, and now I am favoring Nichushkin. Next week I may hop back to the Lindholm bandwagon, who knows? It does seem like Nichushkin leaves little doubt as having the highest potential out of the three, but also seems to be the biggest risk. I think it is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he is big, has incredibly soft hands, plays physical (including digging pucks out of corners), and has amazing speed (nevermind blazing speed for someone that big who has quick acceleration and is very agile - his skating is already elite). He is by far the biggest out of the 3 and has the most elite skating and speed.

Centers have more value though. Big fast power-forward right-wingers are hard to come by as well. Will I be upset that Monahan or Lindholm get drafted ahead of Nichushkin? Definitely not. I think the Flames personally can do no wrong here. I would probably be the happiest that they drafted Nichushkin, with him having the right ceiling, but with the expectation that the Flames THOROUGHLY interviewed Nichushkin, confirmed themselves about his contract status with the KHL, and feel there are no problems going forward.

Though centers are the most valuable it seems, the Flames are the poorest in RW'ers, with Aliu being the closest and 'best' prospect currently, and with Stempniak (who may be traded soon, but with only 1 year left on his contract) as the best current RW'er on the Flames. Organizationally, Nichushkin does indeed fit the biggest 'need' at the moment. I was more wary of picking him initially, but with him not only getting out of his KHL contract, but dedicating this off-season in staying in North America for his training - that really alleviates a lot of my worries (and once again, I would expect the Flames to have done their due-diligence in mitigating any flight-risk possibilities).

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I've really, really enjoyed all the draft discussion, but after three months of yakking in circles, I am soooooo ready for the actual draft.

9 more sleeps.

Originally Posted by JurassicTunga12

It feels like it is taking one hundred billion years to get to June 30.

So excited for the draft!

I kind of understand now why Oiler fans are bat poop crazy. Last few years they have been done and waiting for the draft from January on. 3 months is bad enough but waiting frickin 6 months like this would drive one nuts.