[Trade] Flames aquire Knight from FLA (Report: to sign 2 year deal)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by nik-

Johnny doesn't have the massive chip on his shoulder that helped Theo succeed. He's not going to be another Theo imo.

Fleury wasn't just a small man with a chip on his shoulder he also had all the talent in the world. Although his "chip" certainly provided him with energy and made him gritty, it also totally ruined his career.

Fleury would have been a hall of famer without that chip.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by blankall

Fleury wasn't just a small man with a chip on his shoulder he also had all the talent in the world. Although his "chip" certainly provided him with energy and made him gritty, it also totally ruined his career.

Fleury would have been a hall of famer without that chip.

He also might never have made it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by nik-

He also might never have made it.

perhaps. People are also sorely underestimating Gadreau's chip. He's not a Lady Bing winning perimeter player. He scores most of his goals from a few feet from the net and racks up substantial penalty minutes.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Tanguay - Stajan - Cammalleri
Baertschi - Backlund - Hudler
Stempniak - Knight - Horak
Jackman - Bouma - Mcgrattan

Is what we're currently looking at. Definitely need to offload 1-2 more aging vets. Making room for Reinhart will be tough.. Even more so if we draft a centerman at #6 that they feel can slot in next season as well.

Cripes, the Flames first line looks like an ad-hoc of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines thrown together due to injuries. Surprised that you don't even have GlenX in that lineup. Get rid of your full first line and Jackman and fill the lines with this years first round draft picks and call it the start of a full rebuild.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by nik-

I was starting to see Wotherspoon as a second pairing guy based on the second half of his season starting at the WJC, not immediately obviously, but eventually. Did I totally blow that projection?

Definitely not, I tend to take the lowest possible ranking while projecting them to be NHLers. I could easily place Sven on the first line without anyone saying that's nuts, but he at worst looks like a 50-60 point 2nd line winger like Hudler.

Wotherspoon, Cundari and Sieloff all look like NHL D-men, it just depends on exactly what they do when they get there. I don't think anyone would have expected TJ Brodie to replace Bouwmeester without a huge step down in performance, but we all were pleasantly surprised. At best I was hoping that he'd be would become a slightly taller Andrew Ference. It's that kind of pegging that I did with Wotherspoon and Sieloff. It's hard to tell exactly what they will be as a lot of D-men usually don't show consistency in their abilities until their 3rd pro season.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by blankall

Fleury wasn't just a small man with a chip on his shoulder he also had all the talent in the world. Although his "chip" certainly provided him with energy and made him gritty, it also totally ruined his career.

Fleury would have been a hall of famer without that chip.

Man, I miss watching that guy play.

Hands down the most entertaining player the Flames have ever had IMO.

I can only imagine how good a guy like Iginla, with all his physical gifts, would have been if he'd had the same chip to work with.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Cripes, the Flames first line looks like an ad-hoc of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines thrown together due to injuries. Surprised that you don't even have GlenX in that lineup. Get rid of your full first line and Jackman and fill the lines with this years first round draft picks and call it the start of a full rebuild.

Aka, pull a 'Something Special'?

Nah. Well I'd dress the 6th if it's Monahan or Barkov, but any others would be best suited getting some development time and not being rushed into a death trap on the top two lines culminating in season ending injuries etc. I'd say moving one of Tanguay/Cammalleri/Stajan is a must, though.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by The Voice of Reason

Listened to his interview on the radio on my way home this afternoon. Knight must have said "you know" to either begin or end every second sentence.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Man, I miss watching that guy play.

Hands down the most entertaining player the Flames have ever had IMO.

I can only imagine how good a guy like Iginla, with all his physical gifts, would have been if he'd had the same chip to work with.

Are you kidding me, Iginla's inner beast is half the legend.

Both Flames greats had that fire in them, though it was expressed in different ways.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by blankall

1) Baertschi definitely looks like more of a first line talent. You've also short changed Backlund. He developed very well this year.

I put my roster list as if it was a team that was more of a contender than just where they line up. On a contending team, a player like Backlund should be more of a 3rd line guy that can put up 35-50 points while being rather good defensively. I don't see how we would be a contending team if he is playing regularly on the 2nd line. We need 7 or 8 forwards of Backlund's calibre or better. I do like Backlund a lot and he can be a very useful player moving forward, but we won't be winning anything if he's one of the key name players on this team.

2) Judging defencemen is difficult. Any of those guys you listed could become #2-4 guys.

Definitely. Pegging how good a defenseman will be is about as easy as it is determining how a Goalie will be at the same age. Duncan Keith wasn't very well thought of at Wotherspoon's age (thought to be a 4/5 guy maybe) but he developed into one of the best D-men in league. It really is a crap shoot.

3) Even the guys you listed are all unlikely to reach their potential. But we are bound to luck out with other prospects like Hankowski, Cundari, etc.. That's the benefit to having prospect depth.

We agree fully. The more darts you throw at the board, the more likely you'll hit the mark. That's why I hope the Flames somehow get 8-10 picks or more in each of the next couple drafts. More competition will allow the cream to rise to the top, and allow for opportunities to trade off some players for other areas of need depending on what it is.

4) You don't need a top line consisted of 3 bonafide #1 line players. Very few rosters do. Look at Vancouver...it's Sedin-Sedin-whoever. Look at Boston, arguably the best team in the NHL right now: They essentially have a top line full of second liners that step up when needed.

Usually a contending team needs 7 or 8 players that are equivalent or better than what Baertschi (potential) and Brodie are. Chicago has Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Bolland, Keith, Seabrook and several others that are quality like Bickell, Crawford, Shaw, Hjalmarsson, Leddy Etc. Boston has Bergeron, Lucic, Krejic, Horton, Marchand, Chara, Rask, with a lot of quality secondary players like Jagr, Seidenberg, Ference, Boychuk, Kelly, Peverly and Seguin.

Position doesn't really matter, quality, and quality depth does.

5) We can acquire players through free agency. Especially second line wingers, second pairing d-men etc...

The problem is that as an organization the Flames are basically starting from scratch, so we need to get a stable full of good prospects and young players before we can add in earnest elsewhere. If you look at what LA did was stockpile players that were quality and then trade a couple of the lesser guys in Simmonds and Schenn for Richards, and Johnson for Carter. We are at the point LA was in 2005-2006 though in terms of what we have. It'll take a while before we're at the point to really make moves to put the final touches on being a contender. Until then, everyone over 25 is just a placeholder basically.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by nik-

I was starting to see Wotherspoon as a second pairing guy based on the second half of his season starting at the WJC, not immediately obviously, but eventually. Did I totally blow that projection?

Nah I'd guess a lot of us think that. Looks like a good #4 guy potentially.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

From my point of view, moving forward, we likely have the following spots filled with young players

not filled-not filled-not filled
Baertschi-Jankowski-Gaudreau
Backlund-Knight-not filled
Horak-Reinhart-Bouma

Brodie-not filled
not filled-not filled
Wotherspoon-Sieloff
Breen

Gillies/Ortio/Brossoit (all maybes)

I know some might question Sven being on the 2nd line, but I figure that we need star players on our first line to be a contender, and while Sven is really good, I don't know if he is that good.

Well both Gaudreau and Baertschi are LW and potentially could solve the first two lines. I think between the two of them we could get a real 1st line player. Here's hoping

In my lists I didn't hand the role to a particular player but I've said who I think will compete for those roles in the next few years.

LW
1 - Baertschi/Gaudreau
2 - Gaudreau/Baertschi
3 - Agostino/Hanowski/Ferland
4 - Bouma

I think Baertschi and Gaudreau both show 1st line upside. After that we've got Agostino/Hanowski/Ferland with too little pro experience to really judge them. Perhaps they have 2nd line upside and 4th line downside with 3rd line a nice middle ground? Bouma seems like an ideal 4th line grinding winger.

C
1 - ????/#6/Jankowski
2 - Backlund/Jankowski/Granlund
3 - Knight/Backlund/Reinhart
4 - Reinhart/Arnold

We're really starting to get some depth at centre IMO currently only lacking at the top end. Jankowski has top two line potential but is still a few years away. Backlund looks like he's matured into a #2 centre who may have to fill in as our #1 temporarily. Granlund has skill but is far from stepping in IMO. Knight is a nice pickup and looks like he may compete fairly soon for a role. Reinhart showed some potential as a checking line centre IMO but he may start the year in the minors.

RW
1 - ????
2 - Horak
3 - Hanowski/Nemisz
4 - Nemisz/Aliu

RW the depth is absolutely abysmal. No top line potential. Horak IMO showed 2nd line upside at RW last year. I really like him as a player, he's very smart, has some skill, has gained strength and is one of our rare players who shoots right. His move from C to RW turns out to be pretty good longterm with the acquisition of Knight, our likelihood of grabbing a centre at #6 and our depth at C. I think we can see from this list why they are willing to give Nemisz more chances. We pretty much have nobody else. If Nemisz can rebound next fall he can certainly contend for a role in the future.

D
1 - ????
2 - Brodie
3 - ????
4 - Wotherspoon/Sieloff
5-7 - Wotherspoon/Sieloff/Kulak/Culkin/Breen/Ramage/Cundari

Good depth at the bottom end. Only have Brodie for top line guy. Wotherspoon has #4 upside. Haven't seen enough of Sieloff to say with authority but I'll give him some credit.

G
Gillies, Ortio, Brossoit, Ramo, Berra

We certainly have a few kicks at the can in progress. All 5 highly touted at the various levels they played at last year.

Based on this you'd say we should be looking for a #1 centre, #1 RW and top 3 d-man in this first round this year. Some would like us to draft three centres. I'd prefer C, D, D or C, RW, D.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Based on this you'd say we should be looking for a #1 centre, #1 RW and top 3 d-man in this first round this year. Some would like us to draft three centres. I'd prefer C, D, D or C, RW, D.

Good analysis. Personally I'd love to see the Flames draft C, D, and right-shooting F with the first three picks, respectively, but remaining flexible if there is a clear-cut BPA exception.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Based on this you'd say we should be looking for a #1 centre, #1 RW and top 3 d-man in this first round this year. Some would like us to draft three centres. I'd prefer C, D, D or C, RW, D.

Most centers can learn to play wing pretty easily but not the other way around. Which is why picking the center between otherwise equal players is always the right choice.

Of course, there really isn't such a thing as otherwise perfectly equal players in reality

Not much to add to the topic, but I have to say I'm positively surprised that they were able to get a guy like this. And that a comment about Feaster at all, getting guys like these is really hard in general.

Obviously a bit of luck involved with Knight and Florida not coming to an agreement, but you have to work hard to be the one who benefits from situations like this.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

Fleury wasn't just a small man with a chip on his shoulder he also had all the talent in the world. Although his "chip" certainly provided him with energy and made him gritty, it also totally ruined his career.

Fleury would have been a hall of famer without that chip.

It was pretty clear Fleury had a lot of talent when he scored 129 points in the WHL. And yet, he was available in the 8th round. Without the hate, Fleury doesn't even make the NHL.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

RW
1 - ????
2 - Horak
3 - Hanowski/Nemisz
4 - Nemisz/Aliu

RW the depth is absolutely abysmal. No top line potential. Horak IMO showed 2nd line upside at RW last year. I really like him as a player, he's very smart, has some skill, has gained strength and is one of our rare players who shoots right. His move from C to RW turns out to be pretty good longterm with the acquisition of Knight, our likelihood of grabbing a centre at #6 and our depth at C. I think we can see from this list why they are willing to give Nemisz more chances. We pretty much have nobody else. If Nemisz can rebound next fall he can certainly contend for a role in the future.



Based on this you'd say we should be looking for a #1 centre, #1 RW and top 3 d-man in this first round this year. Some would like us to draft three centres. I'd prefer C, D, D or C, RW, D.

Which is why I chose Lazar in the mock draft over Zykov although Lazar is a center move him to RW as a right handed shot. I think that Zykov may have better hands, but Lazar has better skating. You will need that speed on the first line with a Gaudreau/Baertchi - Monahan/#6 - Lazar.

[Azhouse]

I hope some of the guys in these projected lineups play over their heads in the upcoming years. With some of the rosters listed we are on a runaway train to Lastville for the forseeable future.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by saillias

Are you kidding me, Iginla's inner beast is half the legend.

Both Flames greats had that fire in them, though it was expressed in different ways.

Not kidding.

We've all seen Iginla pick up his play and dominate when he gets ticked off, which wasn't often. Fleury played like that almost all the time. Looking back on it, I think Iginla's easygoing attitude (most of the time - and particularly now he's older) prevented him from being the force he could be as regularly as he could have been it. The last few seasons particularly he's looked like his passion level has just been low.

Not knocking the guy - nobody's perfect, and it's not like Fleury's fire didn't come with (and from) some significant baggage.

[Husky]

I think part of Iginla's attitude is that he had no competion. There was no one to challenge him. He was always the best on the team by a wide margin. Kind of hard to get motivated all the time when there is no healthy peer competition.

[Pointman]

Can someone fill me in on why Iginla is considered a surefire HOFer and Fleury is not. As far, as I can see, Fleury has better point-per-game in regular season (1.00 vs 0.897) and better numbers in playoffs (1.02 vs .884). Actually, Fleury still has 2 more goals and 18 more playoffs points than Iginla. Both were important members of Team Canada. Fleury has a Cup. Fleury had better numbers in the dead-puck era. They both spent some seasons on awful teams and some seasons on stacked teams (those Flames teams were spending the the cap). Their playoff success is arguably identical (except for Fleury won the Cup on his only trip past round 1). Iginla "was in conversation as arguably the best player in the game", but conversations only mean so much and Iginla didn't win neither Cup nor Conn Smyth. It could be argued that Fleury was critical in keeping franchise in Calgary (although it doesn't mean much for HOF). I just don't see why they are considered to be on different levels altogether.