[News] MGM to build 20k seat arena in Las Vegas

[valo403]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I'm pretty sure they'll play a different hockey game every time, and not repeat the same game over and over.

Apparently you've missed the point completely.

Do many tourists go to the same Cirque show over and over? Or, do they go to different shows on each visit?

[CliffFletcher]

A team in Florida can't miss! The Canadian tourists and snowbirds alone are a big enough market to support an NHL team!

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by valo403

Good sports organizations make money. Bad sports organizations do not.

The comparisons to short run and one off events don't really work.

My comments were in response to a previous poster who said a good sports organization needed devoted fans. I think they can make money without devoted fans.

The cirque show Mystere has been running since 1993. How long would it take to meet your requirements?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by valo403

Apparently you've missed the point completely.

Do many tourists go to the same Cirque show over and over? Or, do they go to different shows on each visit?

Right, but a game isn't the same every time and a cirque show is the same every time. Like I said, I go to the Yankees/Mets every year, but only went to Phantom once. Why would that pattern be different in Vegas?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Its not like Cirque or the UFA have season ticket holders, and they're doing fine.

Cirque and the UFA don't play in one city 41 times a year. Not remotely comparable.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Cirque and the UFA don't play in one city 41 times a year. Not remotely comparable.

Right. The cirque shows in Vegas do 400+ shows per year each.

[Freeway]

The argument I've heard from people in other markets regarding pro sports is this:
-People don't go to minor league sports because it's (by definition) inferior. People go to things like Cirque (and the NHL) repeatedly because it's the best you can get of what it does.

That said, the AAA baseball team and the ECHL team in Vegas draw flies.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Right, but a game isn't the same every time and a cirque show is the same every time. Like I said, I go to the Yankees/Mets every year, but only went to Phantom once. Why would that pattern be different in Vegas?

To most people a hockey game is the same every time. You're calling on tourists to support the team here, not hockey fans with an interest in the team or even the game. So sure, on one Vegas trip maybe you catch a hockey game, but you probably aren't going to go to one on the next trip because maybe this time they'll up the forecheck and it'll be a totally unique experience.

I'm a hockey fan, I try to go to games in as many cities as I can, and I probably wouldn't go to a non-Flames game in Vegas more than once, and I certainly wouldn't plan a trip around going to a Las Vegas Gamblers vs. St. Louis Blues game on a tuesday in January.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Right. The cirque shows in Vegas do 400+ shows per year each.

Fair enough; was thinking of the touring shows, and the permanent shows in some other places.

Point still stands about the UFC, however. (I'm guessing that's what you meant; you said UFA.) They don't do 41 events a year altogether.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Fair enough; was thinking of the touring shows, and the permanent shows in some other places.

Point still stands about the UFC, however. (I'm guessing that's what you meant; you said UFA.) They don't do 41 events a year altogether.

UFC prices are also well above what an NHL team would need. Have changed the typo above, thanks.

[korzym12]

The Colorado Avalanche wouldn't mind it.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

From the post above it sounds like there are at least a few serious hockey fans in Vegas.

There are also a ton of tourists:

For example, Cirque du Soleil does the following shows:

Michael Jackson One: 1804 seats, twice nightly
Love: 2013 seats, twice nightly
Mystere: 1600 seats, twice nightly
Zarkana: 1840 seats, twice nightly
O: 1800 seats, twice nightly
Zumanity: Couldn't find seats, but twice nightly
Ka: 1950 seats, twice nightly


Even assuming Zumanity only has 1500 seats, that would be over 25,000 seats per day. Granted, not all shows play every night, but they play more frequently than an NHL or NBA team would. And they play all year, including summer, which is slow in Vegas for weather reasons.


Also, the average NHL ticket price was recently $57.10. None of the cirque shows have tickets available at that price, they all start higher than that. Granted there are deals/comps available, but guaranteed the average price is above that. If a Vegas NHL team could fill an arena with Boston Bruins type ticket prices, it'd probably be ok.

http://www.hookedonhockeymagazine.co...1-2012-season/

Those shows don't sell out every night either. I haven't been to a Cirque show that was a sell out. Also, how many people actually paid full prices for those shows? Usually they get coupons as a part of the package they booked to stay at that hotel, or they went to a tix for tonight booth or found some other discount. I have always paid 2 for 1 or slightly better for Cirque shows. Most of the NHL game tickets would have to have the same kind of offerings in Vegas in order to sell the tickets to tourists.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

UFC prices are also well above what an NHL team would need. Have changed the typo above, thanks.

UFC shows are again one off events, and typically championship events, that people will travel to a city specifically to see.

Are 10,000+ people going to travel to Las Vegas specifically to see a mid week hockey game against Tampa? I'm going to say no. So who goes to that game? Your local season ticket base? I believe your argument is you don't need one so there's probably only 5,000 of them. Is there a convention in town? Yeah? Are 10,000 of them interested in going? Oh what's that, they have convention related events that evening? Let's say a couple thousand of them skip those and go to the game anyways, so we're at 7,000. Maybe a couple thousand in casino comps or the like to get you to 11-12,000.

That's really a best case scenario for that kind of situation IMO, and it's still completely unpredictable. There's a reason that sports franchises value season ticket holders, because they allow a team to have a pretty accurate measure of their baseline ticket sales for each game and for the entire season. Without that you're in a situation where teams have no idea if they'll have 5,000 fans or 20,000 fans. Do they fully staff the arena just in case? Do they spend based on aggressive or conservative estimates? It makes doing business very difficult in a number of ways.

[GGG]

I think basketball of football are better fits than hockey. 1.3 million people means you need a very high number of fans per person. 1 million is a viable market in Canada but bearly. So you would need a Canadian level of interest to have a successful NHL team. Even if tourism is 10-20% of your attendance I think you still struggle. The base level of interest in hockey is probably simialr to Phoenix.

Football actually works best, games are during the day, there are limited in number, they are on weekends, and the NFL has marketed its games like Must See Events. This to me fits the Vegas model better than hockey.

I think MGM is building it for musical acts. Artists will want to book multiple dates in Vegas just to be in Vegas and people will come from all over to see a concert. In this way it will compete with LA for acts and extra concert dates.

I think hockey could survive but it would never be a rich market and I wonder if the 40 dates could be put to better use.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think MGM is building it for musical acts.

I think you're exactly right. I hear the arena in Kansas City is profitable despite not having a sports franchise as an anchor tenant. An arena in Vegas could have a concert, a convention, or a special event every night of the year.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Yeah, I don't get the Canadian tourist angle. So are we hoping that 20,000 Flames, Oilers or Canucks fans make it down to Vegas for 2 games per season each? Will any Flames fans in Vegas at the time ever say "Hey, honey, the Las Vegas Stripper Poles are playing the Nashville Predators tonight, how about we catch that game, even though we don't really care about either team." Are we hoping that Las Vegas becomes the first ever sports franchise that can be successful without a dedicated fanbase?

This is a brutal idea and even worse than putting a team in Phoenix or Atlanta.

Couples probably wouldn't, but groups of guys who are even casual hockey fans would absolutely get into throwing down some money at the sports book and then going to the game.

Edit: I just remembered that one condition of the NBA holding its All Star game in Vegas a few years ago was that the sports books all agree not to take bets on the game. The NHL would probably require the sports books not to take bets on the Vegas team's games, which would make my above point irrelevant.

[lazypucker]

I think with the new arena in Vegas the UFC finally can realize their dream of hosting PPV events 3 times a week!! [/green text]

[drPepper1]

Sweet more seats for boxing! But I doubt the prices would go lower

[united]

At least they would have a dominant home record with all the trouble visiting teams would get into.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by united

At least they would have a dominant home record with all the trouble visiting teams would get into.

Roxy Flu x1000

they could potentially go undefeated at home