How/Why does Tod Button still have a job?

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

He drafts pluggers and checkers but they plug and check in the AHL.

How is that statement even remotely true?

Last year the Flames drafted 3 European players, plus Howse who had a great season in the WHL.

Previous year, they drafted Nemisz who is an offensive player, Wahl who is an offensive player, TJ Brodie who is an offensive dman.

Previous year, they drafted Backlund who is an offensive player, Negrin who is an offensive dman.

Whether they turn out to be NHLers is one thing, but its clear the Flames have targetted players who are offensive.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Kronwall played 20 games in the NHL in 2003-4. Lockout, where he was the best dman in the AHL, then he was a full-time NHLer in 2005-6, but suffered a serious injury and was limited to 27 games. Plus... Kronwall is talented. So, don't compare him to Pelech.

Who is comparing him to Pelech? Just saying other NHL organizations bring their prospects along at a slower pace (i.e. the Wings).

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by flambers

Who is comparing him to Pelech? Just saying other NHL organizations bring their prospects along at a slower pace (i.e. the Wings).

Yes, but with Kronwall, who was drafted, what, 10-12 spots lower than Pelech, you could tell fairly quickly he'd be really good, whereas with Pelech, after 5 years, he looks like he could replace Pardy? I'm not sure what the point is I guess. Yes, Ericsson was brought along slowly, but McKenzie is projecting him as a Norris winner in the future (and McKenzie is usually pretty good with his prospect evaluations). Nobody is projecting anything like that for our prospects. With Kronwall and Ericsson, you knew fairly early on that they were being groomed for top 2-3 roles, so I am just not sure where the relevance is in this comparison. Even a guy like Quincey, who couldn't crack the Detroit line-up, and is waived, winds up being top 4 in LA, and a big producer... We still haven't developed ANYONE of any significance for ourselves or anyone else.
Yes, we have drafted some more interesting players in the last couple of years, so we shall see...

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by flambers

How is that statement even remotely true?

Last year the Flames drafted 3 European players, plus Howse who had a great season in the WHL.

Previous year, they drafted Nemisz who is an offensive player, Wahl who is an offensive player, TJ Brodie who is an offensive dman.

Previous year, they drafted Backlund who is an offensive player, Negrin who is an offensive dman.

Whether they turn out to be NHLers is one thing, but its clear the Flames have targetted players who are offensive.

Jables16 was talking specifically about checkers, I was responding to that. So of course Backlund/Nemisz/Howse/Erixon don't apply...

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by Jables16

Not that I've been in favor of all the draft picks Sutter and his staff have made over the years but I wouldn't write off our farm system just yet. I know everyone is aware that the cupboard was empty when Sutter arrived here but I don't think that everyone understands that building the prospect pool means more than just drafting dynamite blue-chippers that can make an impact on the big team right away. We'd all love to have some more guys like that but we do need those other guys to fill out our farm team and be able to come up in relief, play effectively and return to the team when roster players return from injury. Sutter and his staff have an unfair reputation of drafting nothing but "third and fourth line pluggers and checkers" but we didn't even have guys who could do that under the old regime. We need those guys, thus some draft picks were alloted for that.

Factor in that we've been a playoff team for all but one season that Sutter has been drafting which means that when we do go for a guy who projects to be a top 6 forward, top 4 defense, #1 or solid back-up goalie etc. the guys we draft in the late 20s of the first round, our rare but vaunted second rounders, and reasonable chance third rounders and are going to take longer to develop. The time is starting to come and those picks are going to start trickling onto the big team year by year. Backlund this year, likely Pelech next year, Nemisz and Irving, maybe even Erixon the year after. Then there are guys like Howse and Negrin who could surprise and make an impact with the Flames in these next few years.

It sucks that we don't have a first or second rounder at this point, it was a gamble that didn't pay off to move those picks, but that happens sometimes. Either way you can expect that will change at the draft as Sutter loves to wheel and deal around then. Even if we don't the Flames organization is light years ahead of where it was before Sutter and a lot of people are quick to dismiss that. If we are in a position where we need a new GM to take us over the finish line, it's Sutter who ran 95% of the marathon. I believe he can finish it.

Thank you for posting this. I couldn't put it any better into words the shortsightedness Sutter supporters spout off constantly about his drafting. "We needed pluggers to build a farm system first before worrying about drafting stars." Really? Well, it's 7 years later and where are the results? And who the heck drafts pluggers to build a farm system first? The Flames were in dire need of scoring talent at Darryl's first draft in 03 and he has done nothing to rectify that. Drafting for depth first, how ridiculous. What good is depth without any high end guys to provide depth to?

[ricosuave]

Pfft. You should be thankful we dont have Tom Thompson running the scouting anymore.

[taco.vidal]

Bumping an old thread. I was going to start a new thread to ask this exact questions but searched to see if there had been any discussion in the past. Over the years, it seems this question has been asked many times.

With all the coaches we've been through, the transition to Feaster and Weisbrod, and now a new hockey ops position, why hasn't anything major been done about scouting? Why is Tod Button here after all these years. The Flames early round picks have not been great and there haven't been any hidden gems picked up in the mid to late rounds.

Button has been with the Flames since 1997 and been head scout since 2001. Twelve years as head scout with not much to show for it. I can't help but think it would have been nice to have had some fresh blood to lead the scouting group for the Flames especially for this draft.

[ricosuave]

I seem to recall that a bunch of Sabres scouts were let go a few years back - that would have been the best time to upgrade on what we've got.

I maintain that anyone with the insufferable moniker as 'Tod' shouldn't hold such a plum job in the first place.

We should have gotten rid of all the Buttons back in (2003)?

[FlamesAddiction]

Hard to believe he has survived 4 GMs so far. You would think one of them would have wanted their own guy in there.

I can't help but think that Tod Button is an owner's hire.

[Calgary4LIfe]

We can only speculate..

I myself hoped and prayed he would have been turfed years ago. However, there was also a very small supporting cast for him to start with. It SEEMS like he has becoming better at scouting as the years go on. Some guys learn on the job - and he has been extremely lucky for the patience (still shocked he is here) that the Flames have shown him, but I think over the last few drafts, he has been pretty good. Would be the wrong time now to get rid of him that he FINALLY seems like a strong scout.

[Erick Estrada]

I have a feeling he's not going to survive the next GM hire if anything because if it gets to the point where another GM walks the plank one would hope that the incoming GM would be smart enough to torch anything left from previous regimes.

[Robbob]

there has been a bunch of change on the scouting staff. I think there are about 6 new guys if I remember feaster right. I can't say why he is still around, maybe he is a good evaluator of talent but Gm has has the final say.

[t0rrent98]

I kinda wished the Flames would clean house just like the Raptors are doing after they hired a new GM.

[Brannigans Law]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

Pfft. You should be thankful we dont have Tom Thompson running the scouting anymore.

"...Tom Thomson came paddling past
I'm pretty sure it was him
And he spoke so softly in accordance
With the growing of the dim."

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

We can only speculate..

I myself hoped and prayed he would have been turfed years ago. However, there was also a very small supporting cast for him to start with. It SEEMS like he has becoming better at scouting as the years go on. Some guys learn on the job - and he has been extremely lucky for the patience (still shocked he is here) that the Flames have shown him, but I think over the last few drafts, he has been pretty good. Would be the wrong time now to get rid of him that he FINALLY seems like a strong scout.

If you ever heard/saw the guy talk in detail, you'd know he is a very knowledgeable guy. Tod Button, kind of like Stan Bowman, comes from a hockey family... I don't think its that he is "learning" on the job, I think its more about opportunity and number of staff. A lot of stuff goes into how a player turns out. Look at some of the players that came through Calgary, faltered, went on somewhere else and had success. My best bet is scouting isn't the problem, its development (thats what Darryl sucked at most, not drafting).

[kyuss275]

I wanted him out for a long time. That said, the one draft he was in charge of (2011), looks to be one of the best drafts the flames have had in a long long long time. Maybe he just needed time or needed to be used more with D Sutter.

[MisterJoji]

What scouting position does Michel Goulet hold? I seem to remember they were really talking him up when he came aboard.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

What scouting position does Michel Goulet hold? I seem to remember they were really talking him up when he came aboard.

pro

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Button has been with the Flames since 1997 and been head scout since 2001. Twelve years as head scout with not much to show for it. I can't help but think it would have been nice to have had some fresh blood to lead the scouting group for the Flames especially for this draft.

Obviously his scouting lists must not have been that bad. There may have been various factors as to why the Flames leaned towards certain types of players at various points (Sutter.) Certainly the Flames have access to every scouting list he's made for them so it is pretty easy to judge whether he's decent or complete garbage and whether he's been improving. Given how many regimes he's survived it seems obvious that his lists must be pretty decent. And presumably he's gotten better over his career.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

If you ever heard/saw the guy talk in detail, you'd know he is a very knowledgeable guy. Tod Button, kind of like Stan Bowman, comes from a hockey family... I don't think its that he is "learning" on the job, I think its more about opportunity and number of staff. A lot of stuff goes into how a player turns out. Look at some of the players that came through Calgary, faltered, went on somewhere else and had success. My best bet is scouting isn't the problem, its development (thats what Darryl sucked at most, not drafting).

Oh, I have heard him talk in detail - and he does seem knowledgeable. I WANTED him let go years ago, but since around the '09 draft and onwards (and every year henceforth) he has warmed up to me, and I hope the Flames actually keep him around for the next few years at least. I think he has become an asset.

I could be very wrong that he didn't know what he was doing prior, or that he was 'learning on the job' - just that he has seemed to be getting better as the years go on (and is what I consider a product of Darryl Sutter's influence as well on the organization - increased spending on scouting and actual development, especially towards the end of his term as GM --- though also coinciding with an increased Canadian dollar).