[Rumour] Dowbiggin is reporting a new head of hockey ops

[kyuss275]

Maybe just me but the KK tweets seem to imply that they are just adding a guy in between Feaster and KK. Not saying that it will not help, but was hoping for a guy that would have more control.

Not sure Shanny or Campbell would take the job without getting more power.

[Erick Estrada]

Why do the Flames torture their fans so much? All we want is a legitimate hockey operation. One where we don't have to be skeptical of every decision and an end to the constant whispering on who's really calling the shots and who's having their strings pulled. Really how are the Flames better than the Oilers?

Oilers
-Hands on owner that's maybe too hands on
-mad man president/GM
-good old boys GM that has zero experience managing a hockey team
-team stinks, 7 years out of the playoffs running...

Flames
-Hands on owner that's maybe too hands on
-Newspaper man president/GM (did King even play ice hockey ever?)
-Lawyer turned GM turned hockey blogger due to exile turned GM again to be exiled again the moment he's let go by Flames
-team stinks, 4 years out of the playoffs running...

The rest of the hockey world is laughing at the teams in this province. It's painful to listen to media constantly criticize and make fun of the Flames. It's painful to see fans of other teams look down on Flames fans and mock our organization. I made note to the TSN article and the fan comments. It's incredible how poorly the Flames organization is looked on. A lot of people couldn't believe Shanahan would even consider working for the Flames. This is exactly why the Flames need a guy like him to bring back some credibility to this franchise because the fans deserve better than the current situation of constantly apologizing for the ineptness of management.

[Red John]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why do the Flames torture their fans so much? All we want is a legitimate hockey operation. One where we don't have to be skeptical of every decision and an end to the constant whispering on who's really calling the shots and who's having their strings pulled. Really how are the Flames better than the Oilers?

Oilers
-Hands on owner that's maybe too hands on
-mad man president/GM
-good old boys GM that has zero experience managing a hockey team

Flames
-Hands on owner that's maybe too hands on
-Newspaper man president/GM (did King even play ice hockey ever?)
-Lawyer turned GM turned hockey blogger due to exile turned GM again to be exiled again the moment he's let go by Flames

The rest of the hockey world is laughing at the teams in this province. It's painful to listen to media constantly criticize and make fun of the Flames. It's painful to see fans of other teams look down on Flames fans and mock our organization. I made note to the TSN article and the fan comments. It's incredible how poorly the Flames organization is looked on. A lot of people couldn't believe Shanahan would even consider working for the Flames. This is exactly why the Flames need a guy like him to bring back some credibility to this franchise because the fans deserve better than the current situation of constantly apologizing for the ineptness of management.

Perhaps the biggest difference between the two teams is ironically the greatest enemy of both.

The Oilers care too much about what the media thinks and is sure to keep them in their back pockets at all costs - they are never challenged and get to do what they want.

The Flames have a very negative media that is quick to turn on their team and organization. But management don't care one iota that they are constantly made fun of around the league - they still think they are smarter than everyone.

Frankly the Calgary Flames are like the person driving on the left side of the road, thinking it's everyone else coming towards them who is on the wrong side.

Edmonton could use a media that holds them accountable. Calgary could use management that actually cared what people think of them.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Red John

But management don't care one iota that they are constantly made fun of around the league

This couldn't be more wrong...

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This couldn't be more wrong...

The media being negative of the Flames not caring? I think there's merit to them not caring hence the win now mentality that everyone outside of the Saddledome has criticized and ridiculed them for. I do believe their is some arrogance and 'we're smarter than you' emanating from the Flames organization. The fans have cried for years for the team to quit with the bandaids and the organization plugged their ears even to other teams in the NHL that all believe they were doing it wrong.

[Red John]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This couldn't be more wrong...

The entire league knew a rebuild was necessary for years now and the team stubbornly plugged their ears and did it their own way, until their franchise player told them he wasn't coming back.

Ken King has mentioned in STH info sessions many times now that they are aware of outside opinions but are willing to take a beating in the media in order to execute their plans. Anecdotal evidence perhaps but its coming straight from the horses mouth.

Plain and simply the powers that be think they are smarter than everyone else. The results would suggest it's the emperor who has no clothes.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Red John

The entire league knew a rebuild was necessary for years now and the team stubbornly plugged their ears and did it their own way, until their franchise player told them he wasn't coming back.

Ken King has mentioned in STH info sessions many times now that they are aware of outside opinions but are willing to take a beating in the media in order to execute their plans. Anecdotal evidence perhaps but its coming straight from the horses mouth.

Plain and simply the powers that be think they are smarter than everyone else. The results would suggest it's the emperor who has no clothes.

Translated: We are smarter than the critics.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Translated: We are smarter than the critics.

In fairness, if you had to talk to Francis every day, wouldn't you draw that conclusion as well?

[Tinordi]

Rock solid plan: hire another executive

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Rock solid plan: hire another executive

I'm pretty sure you just post to play devil's advocate and don't really understand what you're typing.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Every team - especially Canadian teams - fall prey to trying to 'win now'. Why hasn't a Canadian club won the Stanley in so long? A few have made the finals, so at least they were close - but the pressure to win in Canada is staggering. It is also still a bit of uneasiness for management and all the ownership groups that weathered the storm of the low Canadian dollar.

Also, every organization thinks they are smarter than everyone else. Why would we want management that doesn't think so? Sure, they were wrong.. but after being named contenders for so long, and always seemingly being a couple of players away, management just tried their best to piece something together. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I hope that the organization learns from this for the future, but it is pretty easy to point the fingers and say: "Hahaha Stupid" now.

Go on to other boards dedicated to other teams. All of management is 'moronic' and 'stupid' according to fans, except the few teams that make it far in their cup runs.

Everyone was praising the Pens for being 'all in', now they are being ridiculed for not having good enough defence and goaltending.

Sometimes fans just aren't privy to what is going on behind the scenes. For instance, some posters here criticize the Flames for not holding some of Bouwmeester's cap. Well, what if the Flames offered, but St. Louis didn't reciprocate with what the Flames felt were enough? I believe you can only share cap with 2 players on your roster - perhaps the Flames feel that Cammy and/or Tangs would be able to garner a better return by doing so? Or perhaps they wanted to clear as much cap as possible to take picks and/or prospects in exchange for salary dumps this off-season, yielding a better return than doing so for Bouwmeester?

Also, I really object to "Has Ken King even played ice hockey?" stigma. He is a president. Once again, how long does someone have to be involved in hockey before they can be considered a 'hockey guy'? Do they need to make it to a certain level? Is it necessary for them to have been NHL players? AHL? ECHL? Major Junior? AAA? When is the cut-off?

Murray Edwards seems to be quite the oil baron, no? Is he considered an oil guy because he was one of the grunts drilling for years? Is that how he learned the business of oil? Coaching I think warrants someone who has more experience playing the game. Management I don't think requires it. Nieuwendyk was not only a fantastic player, but earned his degree as well. Didn't seem to be very good as a manager.

Shanahan being a past hockey player (and a damn good one) doesn't necessarily mean he will be a good executive, or a bad one. Only time will tell how he does at that role. At any rate, what exactly does a president do, as compared to a GM? Anyone have the job descriptions and requirements for this position in the NHL?

[indes]

I agree that the Flames and most definitely Feaster eminate the "we're smarter than the rest thing." I seriously cannot stand the smug look that's always on his face. Then again since he's absolutely hosing the Flames for his salary maybe he is smarter than the rest of them.

[Red John]

Don't think many are criticizing bringing in Shanahan. Fans are hoping that he gets carte blanche over hockey operations and brings in his own GM and does things the way he sees best.

What upsets fans is the idea that Shanahan is just a liaison between King and Feaster and status quo remains in hockey ops.

Frankly this comes down to Jay Feaster, Bob Hartley and the current people involved in Flames management. If its a mandate that Feaster stays no matter what, the real change that is needed, won't happen.

[swo2k1]

Originally Posted by Red John

Don't think many are criticizing bringing in Shanahan. Fans are hoping that he gets carte blanche over hockey operations and brings in his own GM and does things the way he sees best.

What upsets fans is the idea that Shanahan is just a liaison between King and Feaster and status quo remains in hockey ops.

Frankly this comes down to Jay Feaster, Bob Hartley and the current people involved in Flames management. If its a mandate that Feaster stays no matter what, the real change that is needed, won't happen.

How do you criticize when none of this has happened? The Al Maki article in the Globe and Mail suggests Shanahan would have the opportunity to bring in his own people. Dowbiggin who broke this thing suggests that heat would be on Feaster and Hartley.

I'm not sure what Ken King is supposed to say, until something official is in place and announced.

[Red John]

Originally Posted by swo2k1

How do you criticize when none of this has happened? The Al Maki article in the Globe and Mail suggests Shanahan would have the opportunity to bring in his own people. Dowbiggin who broke this thing suggests that heat would be on Feaster and Hartley.

I'm not sure what Ken King is supposed to say, until something official is in place and announced.

Just an abused fan who is expecting further beatings.

Fair enough to stop being so negative until things are official, then we will see.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by swo2k1

How do you criticize when none of this has happened? The Al Maki article in the Globe and Mail suggests Shanahan would have the opportunity to bring in his own people. Dowbiggin who broke this thing suggests that heat would be on Feaster and Hartley.

I'm not sure what Ken King is supposed to say, until something official is in place and announced.

I agree i jumped to conclussions from the KK comments but can you blame me or others? The management teams and ownership have been a step behind since they won the cup.

As for what is he suppose to say... how about nothing.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Red John

Don't think many are criticizing bringing in Shanahan. Fans are hoping that he gets carte blanche over hockey operations and brings in his own GM and does things the way he sees best.

What upsets fans is the idea that Shanahan is just a liaison between King and Feaster and status quo remains in hockey ops.

Frankly this comes down to Jay Feaster, Bob Hartley and the current people involved in Flames management. If its a mandate that Feaster stays no matter what, the real change that is needed, won't happen.

Well, I feel that the role of any president is to be the liaison between the owners (or whatever stakeholders they may be) and lower management. What matters most in that position (in my opinion) is how you set the tone for the organization to be run and hire the most competent people you can below you.

I guess it all comes down to how much 'meddling' really goes on, and if they take King's and Feaster's words for the absolute truth when they came out and said that here is no meddling.

It all depends on how King has been. I am in IT, and I have worked for managers who were IT illiterate. Sometimes they would question my decisions - I would sit with them and explain why I thought 'such and such' was the right approach, and why 'such and such' was the wrong one. I had to 'sell' that manager on what I felt was the right way. How difficult is it to convince King? How often would he say no? How often would he have his own idea as to what was the right way, and force his ideas (or those of the ownership group) down through the pipeline?

I personally just don't think the 'braintrust' was good enough for the last 20 or 30 years. This organization is only finally catching up to other successful organizations now with the scouting and development, and the addition of some executives. I am not convinced that ownership is meddling outside of the occasional "Hey, WTF is going on here? Why do we suck?" now and then. Feaster came out and basically told everyone that he was able to make his decisions without the ownership group blocking him. He even commented on how he called the owners to ask permission to send Kotalik down, and their response was: "Sure, no problem. If you need to, feel free to send Hagman and Stajan down as well."

I think when a rumor starts, it goes around and around. All of a sudden, someone hears it from two different sources, and now the rumor has 'legs'. Someone more legitimate reports on it, and then the rumor has 'merit'. Doesn't mean it is any more true. That is why I just don't buy into the 'ownership is very meddling' in Calgary when these guys are very professional executives and owners who know how to run a business properly - hire good people to manage it for you.

Adding Shanahan (or any other good executive) will only help to reinforce ownership's confidence in the management they hired to run this business. I doubt a good executive would take the job or stay long-term if he felt he was unable to be more than just a messenger back and forth with no powers.

[StrykerSteve]

Shanahan is post apex, no thanks.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Also, I really object to "Has Ken King even played ice hockey?" stigma. He is a president. Once again, how long does someone have to be involved in hockey before they can be considered a 'hockey guy'? Do they need to make it to a certain level? Is it necessary for them to have been NHL players? AHL? ECHL? Major Junior? AAA? When is the cut-off?

He's a president that is is a control freak that likes to be involved in hockey decisions. You better believe I have a problem with the fact that a non-hockey man is involved with hockey decisions. At least Feaster is honest about what he doesn't know in that he hires hockey people for those decisions but at least Feaster ran an AHL organization prior to being employed by the NHL but since his and Dudley's team won a cup he's managed some pretty bad organizations. Things have gone downhill with the Flames as King has got more involved. There's definitely a correlation between the top managers as guys who either played or have extensive history in scouting. It's hard to really understand the dynamics on the ice and in the dressing room if you have never been around them.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Once again, how long does someone have to be involved in hockey before they can be considered a 'hockey guy'? Do they need to make it to a certain level? Is it necessary for them to have been NHL players? AHL? ECHL? Major Junior? AAA? When is the cut-off?

Cliff Fletcher never made it past Junior C. He's in the Hall of Fame as a builder.

If you like some ancient history, Tommy Gorman never played hockey at any level, but won seven Stanley Cups as GM of four different teams — some of which he also coached. He's in the HoF, too. (By the way, like Ken King, he was a newspaper man before he went into hockey management.)

It's a safe bet that Jay Feaster will never be in the Hall of Fame, but his lack of personal experience playing hockey is not the reason. He just isn't a good enough manager.