[News] CHL bans import goalies

[burn_this_city]

Is this a structural issue with our development system? Or a cyclical thing where it just happens that the talent level is low within Canada at the moment? If it's a cyclical issue, than this is a knee jerk reaction to an issue that would sort itself out over time.

[SofaProfessor]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Is this a structural issue with our development system? Or a cyclical thing where it just happens that the talent level is low within Canada at the moment? If it's a cyclical issue, than this is a knee jerk reaction to an issue that would sort itself out over time.

Don Cherry was explaining his thoughts the other night on Coach's Corner (so, you can either consider this legitimate insight or the incoherent ramblings of Ron MacLean's bully - depending on what kind of day it is) and he says the problem is that the CHL teams are going and grabbing older, more developed goalies from Europe to be their starters. Then, when the goalie is too old or moves on and gives a window of hope for his Canadian backup, the team goes and grabs another more developed, older European goalie. So essentially, the Canadian kids are spending all of their time on the bench and missing out on valuable in-game development.

Again, that's what Don Cherry has told me. I am far from an expert on the matter but it sort of makes sense.

[Erick Estrada]

You can't tell me there's something in the water in Finland that is leading them to producing all these goaltenders. I imagine it has to do with different coaching techniques and a different junior system. It's probably something they are doing a little better rather than anything Canada is doing wrong as this country still does produce pretty good goaltenders maybe just not the best of the best as we have been accustomed to in the past.

[wretched34]

In other news, Canadian and American Immigration recieves hundreds of Dual Citizenship requests from teenage european boys.

I get the idea, but I think it's a stupid way to handle the issue. Perhaps development should be looked at internally, rather than banning the better man for the job. If the North american kids aren't good enough to beat out the Europeans, doesn't this lower the level of competition in the CHL?
Are we gonna see more offensive phenoms, putting up Gretzky like junior points, who can't transition to the NHL because they've never seen a top tier goaltender before?
Are North American defenders going to start getting overlooked come draft time because they look lousy coming out of the CHL? Will the NCAA become the top feeder to the NHL?
Taking away the best players in the most important position changes the game drastically.
That would be like the NBA saying teams can't draft anyone over 6'3" because it's unfair to the guys under 6'0"

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Seems like sound logic. Our goaltending sucks, so lets make it easier for sucky goaltending to get promoted. That tends to work in my work place, I tend to fire all the high performers so that the low performers get more of an opportunity to suck it up at a higher level, works wonders for their development and the companies overall performance. It's really the key to success.

Hockey Canada needs to figure out why we aren't developing top talent any more that can out perform the Euro goalies, not find ways to stop the Euro goalies from showing up our boys.

I agree with the bottom portion, but your analogy in the first paragraph is ridiculous.

A better analogy would be a situation where the top performers at your company are preventing other potential employees from developing high end skills, and those top performers are also guaranteed to not be with your company in 3 years time, while the other potential employees will be lifetime employees. So you go with the short term performer over developing your own long term talent? Seems like a pretty poor way to run a business.

[Boreal]

This doesn't make a lot of sense, however hopefully it is a stop gap as a National Goaltending Certification Program is established.

http://ingoalmag.com/coaching/the-im...-minor-hockey/

If goaltending experts/coaches/trainers in each province of Canada were able to come together and share their expertise, information, and training methods, we could create a goaltending program that could compete with the programs Finland and other European countries have been developing for years. It is time to stop talking about it and put a goaltender coaches certification/education program into action nationwide.

Every goaltending coach needs to receive consistent training so they can deliver a consistent program, and every coach needs to be certified. This would result in optimum development in young goalies as they go through the minor hockey program. Having a goaltender coaches certification/education program would also result in producing more goalie coaches in the region, and see more educated goalie coaches throughout minor hockey. The problem in Canada now is that some goaltenders are receiving strong goalie coaching and training and others are not because we leave the training in the hands of goalie companies to train and provide instruction/education. Which results in some goalies not receiving enough or any goaltender training.

What Needs to be in a Goaltender Certification Program.

In order to achieve a great goaltender certification program there should be a manual with chapters covering all sections that goaltenders use to develop and improve on and off the ice. This manual should not only be printed and given to everyone who has decided to take the certification program, but it should also be provided online as a resource library that coaches can access.

[Stay Golden]

I can see why the CHL decided this with being a Goalie is likely looked at a specialty position being only 2-3 per team. It would make sense to give a Canadian kid the best opportunity to develop here. After all the ultimate purpose in theory is the CHL develop Canadians. They opened their doors to Europeans which is fine the ratio it is at but can understand and agree with not continuing to support European goalies.

[GrrlGoalie33]

Finland has a goalie development program that starts young. It is a program developed and distributed by their hockey federation aimed at specifically developing goalies.

Over here, we don't have anything like that, and every year or two when a kid gets a new parent as a "goalie coach", they are told to play an entirely different way. Goalie coaching in Canada is often a parent on the ice firing pucks at a kid without any real aim to developing certain parts of that kids game.

6 of the top 40 goalies in the CHL this last year were European:

"Despite a relatively low number of European goalies in the CHL overall – this past season only four of the top-20 minute munching goalies in both the WHL and OHL were from Europe, in the QMJHL it was two of 20 –" http://ingoalmag.com/news/chl-bans-e...th-2014-draft/

[GrrlGoalie33]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

I can see why the CHL decided this with being a Goalie is likely looked at a specialty position being only 2-3 per team. It would make sense to give a Canadian kid the best opportunity to develop here. After all the ultimate purpose in theory is the CHL develop Canadians. They opened their doors to Europeans which is fine the ratio it is at but can understand and agree with not continuing to support European goalies.

This isn't entirely true. It is developing North American talent. American kids coming into the league don't count as imports. If US developed players can beat out Canadian developed players, they can take the spots.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by tripin_billie

I would argue the opposite. Finland has certification and goaltender coaching from an early age. http://www.goaliepro.com/fi/resurssi...-minor-hockey/

The Canadian system is pumping out goalies who are being taught a new technique every year or two, with no long term planning and curriculum.

Finland (and now Sweden too) will continue to have better results because the certified goalie coaches know where a child should be at a specific age and what skills need to be taught.

Even in the 90s, I was being taught skate saves with a carved C, and this was at goalie camps in Calgary... Then, every year, I had some random parents acting as "goalie coach" (ie. some Joe who just wants to practice shooting on net for a few hours a week) telling me conflicting advice as to how to play the position.

We are far behind, and until we have a national curriculum for goaltending, we won't catch up.

I can't remember who it was but there was a NHL goaltender who was asked a while ago what he thought the problem with Canadian goaltenders was and he said that they had the butterfly system shoved down their neck at a young age and that people didn't develop their own goaltending styles and the creativity as a result. I think a system like Finland has is a lot easier to implement considering it is a much smaller country and there are a fraction of the players playing hockey. To implement a similar goaltending coach system for Canadian hockey would cost a small fortune.

I also think that the butterfly style is hard on the joints leading to injuries and players who would otherwise potentially being elite having to leave the game at a younger age.

[Fire]

The article doesn't mention what % of goalies are imports. Anyone know? Sounds like a silly idea, the imports are only bumping off the worse of the Canadian/U.S. goalies.

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by Frankster

This isn't entirely true. It is developing North American talent. American kids coming into the league don't count as imports. If US developed players can beat out Canadian developed players, they can take the spots.

That's true I didn't mention it because of all the American teams in the WHL that I would assume have a good representation of USA kids on them. Not to mention their are Americans on probably almost every Jr roster. So ya North American kids should be developed more in goal perhaps this improves the Quality of North American goalies and the amount that eventually get drafted.

[GrrlGoalie33]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

I can't remember who it was but there was a NHL goaltender who was asked a while ago what he thought the problem with Canadian goaltenders was and he said that they had the butterfly system shoved down their neck at a young age and that people didn't develop their own goaltending styles and the creativity as a result. I think a system like Finland has is a lot easier to implement considering it is a much smaller country and there are a fraction of the players playing hockey. To implement a similar goaltending coach system for Canadian hockey would cost a small fortune.

I also think that the butterfly style is hard on the joints leading to injuries and players who would otherwise potentially being elite having to leave the game at a younger age.

Hockey Canada can and does implement whatever programs it wants at the minor hockey level. If they were willing to admit that they're behind the curve in this area, they could quickly implement a goaltender development program (it would take years to see the benefit, however). They just aren't willing to admit that they're wrong yet.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by STX

My oldest son was a goalie until Midget when he had to quit because he had developed a chronic hip condition from playing a butterfly style for so many years. Candidly, I'd have to say that I was glad when he stopped because it cost a fortune for equipment and training and because it was very stressful for me as a parent. Tie games and overtime games are not fun when your kid is in net and occasionally, comments from other parents who do not have a kid as a goalie are sometimes quite misguided and mean.

Two things:

- Giguere said something very similar a few years ago concerning major hip pain.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4081980/

And the comments from the parents is something that I dealt with a lot as a soccer coach, and I think its the responsibility of parents and coaches to deal with that because goaltending is the most obvious position, every mistake is magnified.

We're still talking about kids here. They make mistakes because kids suck at everything.

[Table 5]

When you guys enroll your kids into these programs, is it with the intention of them taking it seriously and hopefully becoming NHLers? Or is it more of a "just for fun and exercise" type of deal? Seems like it's a lot more intense than I thought it would be.

[FlamesAddiction]

I wonder how Finland did it.

Back in the 1990s and before, it seemed like they produced great players, but goaltending was weak. Today, it seems like they keep producing them faster than pancakes at the Hoito.

[GrrlGoalie33]

Originally Posted by Table 5

When you guys enroll your kids into these programs, is it with the intention of them taking it seriously and hopefully becoming NHLers? Or is it more of a "just for fun and exercise" type of deal? Seems like it's a lot more intense than I thought it would be.

My experience as a hockey ref and watching my nephew play soccer, is that many parents tell themselves it's for "fun and exercise", but quickly turns into more than that.

Politics in minor sports these days is beyond ridiculous. Maybe it was that bad when I was growing up, but if it was, my parents did a fantastic job of sheltering me from it.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by valo403

I agree with the bottom portion, but your analogy in the first paragraph is ridiculous.

A better analogy would be a situation where the top performers at your company are preventing other potential employees from developing high end skills, and those top performers are also guaranteed to not be with your company in 3 years time, while the other potential employees will be lifetime employees. So you go with the short term performer over developing your own long term talent? Seems like a pretty poor way to run a business.

I actually dissagree with your bottom assesment. I see the comparison you are making with the short term and long term goals, but the problem with the solution being proposed is it increases the potential long term performance by essentially attempting to lower the quality standards industry wide, versus actually trying to vault the quality standards internally to best in class.

Essentially what they are doing is trying to increase the quality of Canadian goaltending by given them more experience, but also lower the quality of foreign goaltending by not affording them development opportunities in the CHL. In theory, the Canadian goaltending gets better, but not as good as the Euro goaltending is now, and the Euro goaltending gets worse. Overall, the quality of goaltending goes down though, as the Euro's who were coming in as the best option and getting the experience in the CHL aren't as good as they could have been.

Not the right way to manage the industry. Hockey Canada needs to figure out why our guys aren't entering the CHL as prepared as the Euro's are and address that, find a way to get them to win more spots, versus lowering the standard and giving them spots. The thought being circulated about CHL teams taking on older Euro's does have some weight, so rules need to be put in place to focus on the development of younger goalies then (Canadian or Euro) for the teams, versus a ban of Euro goalies. Or, Hockey Canada needs to focus on their development programs prior to the CHL so that older Canadian goalies are just as ready to make the jump to the CHL at the older age.

Either of those are the better way to solve this problem versus what they are doing.

Plus, it needs to be noted that there is an opportunity cost from not allowing the best goalies into the league. Facing top notch competition is really good for the Canadian skaters in the CHL, and lowering the quality of goaltending they face in the league will start to impact their development as well. Just another reason to solve this issue in a different fashion.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I actually dissagree with your bottom assesment. I see the comparison you are making with the short term and long term goals, but the problem with the solution being proposed is it increases the potential long term performance by essentially attempting to lower the quality standards industry wide, versus actually trying to vault the quality standards internally to best in class.

Essentially what they are doing is trying to increase the quality of Canadian goaltending by given them more experience, but also lower the quality of foreign goaltending by not affording them development opportunities in the CHL. In theory, the Canadian goaltending gets better, but not as good as the Euro goaltending is now, and the Euro goaltending gets worse. Overall, the quality of goaltending goes down though, as the Euro's who were coming in as the best option and getting the experience in the CHL aren't as good as they could have been.

The European goalies coming over aren't really developing all that much and aren't better NHL prospects than many of the guys that they would be holding back. They are older 19 year old guys that can come over for a year and try to parlay that into a Euro league spot next year.

The top Euro goalies in the NHL mainly, if not all, come from Europe as the best prospects are getting playing time in in the Euro junior league or mens leagues.

What this does is prevent the 19 year old Euros from taking a spot from younger Canadians for a season.

[WilderPegasus]

Originally Posted by moon

As for the goalie development. Maybe Finland is doing a better job but there aren't a ton of young stud Finnish goalies right now.

Rask is it.

Outside of Lundqvist Sweden looks worse off goalie wise than Canada.

Who are the Canadian equivalents of Markstrom and Lehner as future top goalies?

Bobrovsky had one good year but outside of that Russia isn't exactly flush with goalies and the Czechs and Slovaks have 0 good goalies.

That's a little different because very few Russians come over any more and the Czechs and Slovaks don't produce much NHL talent these day.