Confirmed: the US government has a massive program to track all phone calls

[TurnedTheCorner]

[Vulcan]

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Unless I am mistaken, this was done by court order. Which part of the system was bypassed in your opinion?

The way the US government accesses the information from Google, Facebook and the rest is highly up in the air as to whether or not they obtain a court order everytime.

Obviously those companies will claim they do, but I'm not so sure.

As for the other stories, if the NSA is collecting data on every single Verizon customer, it was being done without following the proper guidelines. No sane judge would grant a blanket order that allows the government to infringe on the privacy and rights of millions of Americans without an actual reason, like terrorist ties, existing.

If the law was passed by Congress or whoever, they should be taken out back and strung up.

Boundless Informant is pretty scary as well. I know this is what the NSA does, but there is still a right to privacy, and a right for Americans to not be spied on unless there is a damn good reason for doing so.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Herbert Hoover's activities would bring dispute to the recollection of the author.

Ultimately, these secretive agencies do report to elected representatives. It's really about whether voters think their elected representatives are giving these agencies too much rope.

I would be interested to know if companies like Verizon are losing customers due to these revelations. That would be revealing as a canary in a,coal mine whether or not Americans care or not.

Cowperson

I think you have it backwards.

People should not have to start thinking which phone company they trust. They should be able to trust all of them. The real question is whether or not the public demands that their lawmakers demand more oversight and transparency.

The US governmend has spent billions of dollars on massive programs that vastly expand their ability to spy in on it's people, and basicly all this secret, clearly overreaching from anything that was ever debated in public or in senate. This is so far from democracy it's ridiculous. In a democratic society the people are supposed to be able rule over their military and their political leaders.

Considering the amount of fellating over the military in the US, fat chance anything comes out of this. I mean when damned cooking shows are having military appreciation episodes you know things are a little crazy there. The military propaganda is just everywhere in the US.

When police stations and private internet companies are required to act as data centers for the military, you know the militarisation of the society has gone pretty far.

[Yasa]

Why do we have to wait until the potential for abuse is reached? Yeah sure, maybe all this data collection will be used appropriately for the next 10, 20, 50 years. Obama may not abuse it. The next guy, or next few people in charge might not either. All it takes is one instance of abuse for everyone to say "Why didn't anyone do anything to stop this?" and we'll all say "We didn't think it would happen."

If it's not corrected before this is used nefariously then it could be too late. I mean, sure, under current conditions and laws, it's legal for the NSA to collect information on everyone. That doesn't mean it's ethical. That doesn't mean I need to sit down and agree with it. There are lots of laws I don't agree with, but they're still the legally within their right to be upheld and practiced.

"History repeats itself" is a cliche for a reason. We might be more technologically advanced than we ever have been before but we're still pretty stupid when it comes to power and control. The folks with power want to keep it, and they usually think they're doing the right thing. Especially in the name of security. Which is another interesting thing.

If I were to guess (and admittedly an uneducated guess), then I'd say that acts such as this would lead to less safety. Some people are going to want to fight back against what they think is oppressive. If there was no data collection and no spying, I'd say those people would be less inclined to oppose the government for those reasons. When you start backing them into a corner like they feel the NSA is doing, then their motivations and desperations grow.

I don't know. I just don't feel it necessary for any government to spy on their people unchecked in the name of security. Like I said, it might not be abused for 50-100 years but assuming nothing changes then it's not really a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And that's why I think it's unethical and potentially dangerous.

[missdpuck]

Originally Posted by RT14

That is F'd.

It seems like we're losing a growing number of our rights and freedoms and with no real way to make it stop as the majority of people will scoff at anyone that says the government is doing something wrong.

Scary and sad. Where does the line get drawn?

Why would the Feds, local law enforcement, your wacky neighbor or friendly stalker lie? Teeeheeeeeheeeee

On the other hand, perhaps this explains why so many people won't give up their guns.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Itse

I think you have it backwards.

People should not have to start thinking which phone company they trust. They should be able to trust all of them. The real question is whether or not the public demands that their lawmakers demand more oversight and transparency.

The US governmend has spent billions of dollars on massive programs that vastly expand their ability to spy in on it's people, and basicly all this secret, clearly overreaching from anything that was ever debated in public or in senate. This is so far from democracy it's ridiculous. In a democratic society the people are supposed to be able rule over their military and their political leaders.

Considering the amount of fellating over the military in the US, fat chance anything comes out of this. I mean when damned cooking shows are having military appreciation episodes you know things are a little crazy there. The military propaganda is just everywhere in the US.

When police stations and private internet companies are required to act as data centers for the military, you know the militarisation of the society has gone pretty far.

While you are not wrong, that's not really the point Cow was trying to make. He was just simply asking, quite rightly, how much the American public truly cares. They should of course, but just how much, I am not sure of either. It doesn't seem like much.

[chemgear]

Name and video of the source of the leak:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...r-surveillance

The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.

[missdpuck]

Originally Posted by Daradon

While you are not wrong, that's not really the point Cow was trying to make. He was just simply asking, quite rightly, how much the American public truly cares. They should of course, but just how much, I am not sure of either. It doesn't seem like much.

My observation is that no one cares until his/ her life is disrupted as a consequence. The general consensus is that, hey, as long as I'm a law-abiding citizen no one is going to come after me.
I don't wear a tin foil hat, but I can't remember when I last believed that.
These are the same folks who are watching reality shows and crime dramas that feature innocent people having their lives ruined by overzealous do-gooders, incompetent law enforcement, etc. Yet they somehow also believe it doesn't actually happen. Weird. Cognitive bias, denial, what???

Before you ask why individuals or organizations would lie, read The Sociopath Next Door or the Psychopathy of Everyday Life.

This is a bit OT , but one of the most disturbing programs I have ever watched is Stalked. The most upsetting episode for me is the one in which a woman's fate hinged on whether or not a 12 year old girl would lie for her freakshow stalker mother. Where was law enforcement during all this? It wasn't just that they couldn't do anything from a legal standpoint- it was that, to a great extent,they believed the liar. "Why would she lie?"

[DuffMan]

Maybe Alex Jones is right after all, and his many followers aren't nuts.

Also on today's worldwide broadcast, Alex covers the PRISM scandal, the National Security Agency's massive surveillance grid, and deftly breaks down the serious implications for liberty and our cherished constitutional freedoms as the mega-snoop program delves into the minutest private details of our lives.

[missdpuck]

It does make you wonder, Duff.My county has instituted a "snitch" program, where you are encouraged to rat out your neighbor. The proponents assure us that law enforcement has the madskillz to sniff out the frivilous or vengeful complaints.
Our neighborhood association has just adopted the same thing.
Hey that's nothing my neighbor has been snooping on everyone for years

[Daradon]

Again, I don't disagree. I'm not backing these people up. People should be pissed off.

It just seems that they are not. And you are right, because they don't see it affecting themselves.

But this has been the state of affairs for a while now, especially in the States. Everyone is so consumed with celebrity and every little political sideshow they care little for actual news or politics.

I would agree there is a level of it here in Canada, but it's not quite the same, yet.

I would also admit it's probably silly to believe a certain amount of it is not happening here. But until there is a big story about it, there's not much I can say or do.

What does give me faith sometimes is just the simple fact that the Canadian government is so small compared to the states, and internationally our troubles are far less, that they government probably doesn't have the ability or inclination to create such far reaching programs like the NSA and CIA have. And if they did, they would probably fail miserably at it, haha. Our PM can't even keep his own scandals in his own office in check right now.

More than anything, I know that we work with a lot of the US agencies, and I have heard of information sharing that perhaps should not be. But I have also heard of cases where information was asked to be shared and was denied. So how much the Canadian government might be spying on it's own people, or worse, ALLOWING the US to spy on them for common security goals, I cannot really say.

[missdpuck]

Agreed, Daradon.

I am working on a website to sell crap that I actually make. To that end, I did some research about different forms of marketing.
In researching IM-related scams, I came across saltydroid.info. You might get a kick out of it.
His vision of us (I'd say it's mostly us down here) is pretty spot on. I think our whole culture (well, that's a bit hyperbolic I guess) is driven by celebrity and things that don't even exist in the "real" world.
I don't agree with everything he says, but his point that it's frightening that ... I don't even know what you'd call it... that modern life has become something incredibly twisted in ways of which these scams he exposes are only a symptom. I know that didn't make sense, but hey. It just upsets me!

I guess when power corrupts, it corrupts absolutely as they say...

[woob]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Name and video of the source of the leak:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...r-surveillance

The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.

Bets on when the smear campaign to make this guy seem bad/unstable/etc. begins?

Good read. Guy has a decently long history in intelligence, both government and private side.

Over the next three years, he learned just how all-consuming the NSA's surveillance activities were, claiming "they are intent on making every conversation and every form of behaviour in the world known to them".

"What they're doing" poses "an existential threat to democracy", he said.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. My guess? Similar to Manning. Your average person in the US will have no idea.

[missdpuck]

What does all this have to do with the Kardashians?

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by woob

Bets on when the smear campaign to make this guy seem bad/unstable/etc. begins?
.

“I had full access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all around the world,” he told The Guardian. In a video posted on the website, Snowden claimed that “Any analyst at any time can target anyone … I, sitting at my desk, certainly have the authorities to wiretap anyone — from you or your accountant, to a federal judge, to even the President.”

Sounds like a highly unlikely claim.

I don't think anyone has to come up with a smear campaign. He's doing a pretty good job of looking like a bit of a conspiracy freak already.

Most interesting thing he said was voting for a third party but hoping Obama would shut down the programs he was worried about. Then his growing disenchantment when Obama did the opposite.

Therein lies the difference between working in the role of an opposition critic versus actually being responsible for the safety of the American public. Obama has worn both hats now and its not easy laying off the tools available to him in his current job.

The debate is healthy but the American public will always err on the side of surrendering some privacy to aid in the defeat of an external threat.

Mr. Snowden is going to spend a lot of years in jail. Unless he defects to Cuba.

Cowperson

[Azure]

He is currently in Hong Kong, so who knows what will happen with him.

I don't think he is a conspiracy freak. I think he saw a serious problem within an intelligence community that has spent hundreds of billions the last ten years in the name of national security.

Wouldn't be the first time a government abused their power.

[Northendzone]

Perhaps someone should hack into the NSA's computer and modify the program to look for the phrase "where are you?" Or variants thereof - then thier computers would be suffering fromma data overload in about 4 hours.

[burn_this_city]

It was smart to go public, otherwise he would have simply disappeared once they narrowed down who the leak came from.

The excuse of thwarting terrorism to warrant this is beyond ridiculous. The Americans have completely overreacted to the entire threat, to the point where they've ruined the foundation of their democracy. I guess that's what Bin Laden wanted when he attacked the US, so when people say the terrorists have won, it's true.

Anyone who believes that this level of information gathering is acceptable is a fool. Like others have said, it's only a matter of time before another excuse comes along, and someone looking to consolidate and abuse power already has the tools to suppress the population.

[Azure]

Assuming of course that Obama hasn't already abused his power.

IMO he has. Only need to look at the drone attacks to see that.