Flames 2013 Draft Discussion

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by moon

The Western Canadian stuff is garbage.

The best Sutter Era pick (Phaneuf) was a Western Canadian, Dustin Boyd a western canadian was fine for a 3rd rounder, Matt Pelech was as big a bust as any from Ontario, Nemisz isn't looking like a stud from the OHL, Bouma looks okay for his pick from Western Canada, Ramholt over Webber great that he didn't go Western Canadian there. Of his 7 1st round picks only 3 from Western Canada.

People can rip Sutter all they want on his drafting but the Western Canadian thing is way overblown.

Tod Button hasn't really shown anything over his career to indicate that he should get a pass on the Sutter years and if Sutter was undermining him as head scout he should have quit.

And Kris Chucko
And Joey Leach
And Gord Baldwin
And Leland Irving
And John Negrin
And Ryan Howse

Dustin Boyd as a good 3rd round selection - seriously?

Phaneuf was the best pick but a headcase and got run out of town because his head got too big. Look at the other 2003 picks and tell me we couldn't have done better and tell me that Sutter didn't influence that pick.

I'll find some quotes about Sutter and Western Canadian boys and post tomorrow but there's no denying Sutter effed this franchise through his Western bias.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Jack

Outside of Jones, Zadorov, Nurse, Morrisey and Ristolainen, which defensemen would you like to see the Flames select?

There seem to be many interesting defenders that will go in the later half of the first round and all through the second.

I've read a few of the draft guides and a couple of guys have jumped out at me:

Chris Bigras - Sure-handed guy who isn't flashy, but rarely makes a mistake and doesn't seem to have any glaring weaknesses
Madison Bowey - Dynamic puck mover who always plays with energy
Steve Santini - Good skating defesive dman that could potentially be a top shut down guy in the NHL

Some fellers interest me on sheer potential:

Morin - because he is huge, nasty and skates well
Mueller - based on level of progress in the past year and he has ideal size

Whoever the Flames select, I hope it is someone who is good in their own zone. Mediocre play in your own zone does not cut it in crunch time.

If we can drop our StL pick down for a later 1st and a 2nd and our Pitt pick for a couple 2nds I'd be comfortable taking one or more of the dmen you mention, of course depending who is still available at the StL and Pitt pick. Lots of question marks after the top 15 or so and the Euros outside of Lindholm and Nichushkin make me uneasy. Too many bad memories of Jesper Mattson and the Swedish Wendel Clark, Niklas Sunblad.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Is that you Darryl?

Yes, he added scouts but Darryl is the reason why the drafting sucked. Tod Button mentioned that the final call was Darryl's. We missed out on good olayers because of the bias towards Western Canadian players. He never got past the game as it was played in '04 and spent too many picks on big physical players and not towards a blend of skill and grit. He failed to see the evolution in the game and the role that smaller skilled players could play. Trading away 2nd rounders and draft picks and prospects in general weakened the pipeline further.

Surrounding yourself with a bunch of yes men including your brother who shares your same vision is a classic example of groupthink and not the best way to develop a functional scouting staff, especially if you micromanage it to the extent that he did.

Is that you Jay Feaster?

There were probably 2 very good reasons why Darryl picked SLIGHTLY more Western Canadian kids vs others:
1) He was trying to build a culture in Calgary of players wanting to play here, and being proud of this team.
2) Lack of scouts - he convinced ownership to expand the scouting department for what I think was every single season he was GM (and the drafting DID improve). Flames simply did not have enough manpower to adequately scout every league - hence a few more picks in the leagues they would get to see more often. Makes sense to me.

Also, as for drafting the 'big western Canadian' all grit no skill you mentioned - who drafted Backlund? Brodie? Erixon?

Seriously, go back through every one of Darryl's drafts and look at who he selected. Euros, OHL, QMJHL even (though I think only a couple at most in the Q). Not everyone was big and burly. He selected a lot of skilled and somewhat undersized players as well.

People just remember what they want to remember, instead of looking things up for themselves. Not only do you see players selected who pretty much the exact opposite of what you insist was his focus, but you can see an ever-improving draft. When did "High hockey IQ" become something the Flames drafted towards? Feaster's regime? When Weisbrod came aboard? No, it was under Darryl.

Once again, Darryl took over a team with horrible drafting and development. He himself BOMBED HORRIBLY at it for the first few years as well, but he started to make the changes necessary to adjust. You might argue it was slow in coming, but it did come, and Feaster just seems to be taking every ounce of credit for it.

Did Darryl make some blunders in the drafting philosophy and selections? YOU BET! However, he is also responsible for the improvement as well - both in investing in drafting and development, as well as what qualities the staff should be emphasizing on.

Darryl was not the "God" he seemed to be for years in Calgary, but on the same token, he was definitely not the devil either as people make him out to be.

[moon]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

And Kris Chucko
And Joey Leach
And Gord Baldwin
And Leland Irving
And John Negrin
And Ryan Howse

And much more from other leagues that didn't make it.

Dustin Boyd as a good 3rd round selection - seriously?

Only 5 guys in the 3rd round that year played more than him and he was the last pick in the round. Only 8 in the 2nd round played more than him. 33 guys drafted ahead of him never played in the league and another 14 played under 15 games.

So yes he wasn't a stud but getting 200 NHL games out of a guy is a decent 3rd round pick.

Phaneuf was the best pick but a headcase and got run out of town because his head got too big. Look at the other 2003 picks and tell me we couldn't have done better and tell me that Sutter didn't influence that pick.

Sure hindsight we could have done better but so could basically everyone that didn't draft Corey Perry doesn't mean they are bad picks. Phaneuf was a very good pick at the time, not a reach for a Western kid

I'll find some quotes about Sutter and Western Canadian boys and post tomorrow but there's no denying Sutter effed this franchise through his Western bias.

I am sure he liked Western kids and am not arguing that but it wasn't all they went, the Western kids were far from the majority of busts and it is very easy to deny that it was a Western bias that screwed this club and poor drafting overall.

Getting nothing from the Nemisz, Pelech, Erixon (during Sutter's tenure) are as big a problem with the club as any Western kid drafting. Taking Ramholt in the 2nd round that produced some top players is a huge problem.

Taking the Western kid in Phaneuf wasn't the problem it was the horrible trade made with him that was. For his first 3/4 years Phaneuf was a top 5 player from that draft while playing for the Flames.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Jack

Outside of Jones, Zadorov, Nurse, Morrisey and Ristolainen, which defensemen would you like to see the Flames select?

There seem to be many interesting defenders that will go in the later half of the first round and all through the second.

I've read a few of the draft guides and a couple of guys have jumped out at me:

Chris Bigras - Sure-handed guy who isn't flashy, but rarely makes a mistake and doesn't seem to have any glaring weaknesses
Madison Bowey - Dynamic puck mover who always plays with energy
Steve Santini - Good skating defesive dman that could potentially be a top shut down guy in the NHL

Some fellers interest me on sheer potential:

Morin - because he is huge, nasty and skates well
Mueller - based on level of progress in the past year and he has ideal size

Whoever the Flames select, I hope it is someone who is good in their own zone. Mediocre play in your own zone does not cut it in crunch time.

1. Ryan Pulock (although you probably forgot to list him). Despite concerns that he has peaked physically at a young age, he still led his team in scoring even after missing extended time and playing through a wrist injury that impacted his greatest asset (his shot). He was a projected top five-ten pick at the start of the season, and may be of victim of being over scouted due to his three years in Junior.

2. Ian McCoshen. Big, Mobile, two way defender that is committed to Boston College next season. Considering his statline, two way ability, and size I think he is getting heavily underrated. It would not surprise me to see a team snag him in the 20-25 range.

3. Shea Theodore. Huge offensive upside. He has some work to do on the defensive side of the puck, and must add some serious muscle to his 6'2" frame but the raw ability this kid possesses could make him the most productive defender taken in this draft class.

4. Dillon Heatherington - Another big prospect that is a decently mobile and nasty shutdown defender. He is also a hometown kid to boot!

I also like that both McCoshen and Theodore are late 95' birthdays, which is something I usually look for.

[Phanuthier]

moon owns The Original FFIV ... lol

[dammage79]

Later rounds D-Man to look at : Mitch Wheaton. 6'4 225 from the Kelowna Rockets I believe. Scouting reports say he is a good skater and very good positionally in his own zone. stay at home kind of D-man.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Baertschi's production is marginally better than Backlunds. At 20 years old, Backlund put up 10 points in 23 games playing a minute less ice-time per game.

Based on their play, Baerstchi is showing the same promise Backlund did that age, which is the right stage for him to be right now.

After practicing alongside Baertschi, Backlund openly admitted that Sven was on a whole other level of skill than him. Sure, there may be similarities in production early on, but it's obvious one is going to be a more impactful player than the other, because of these skill sets.

I have little doubt that Backs will progress into a solid and reliable 2-way, top 9 forward with some upside though. At the same time, I'm not overly optimistic in my predictions, as I see Sven as becoming a 2nd line playmaker who can put up 40-50 points and might peak at 60.

[nightfx]

^

So you think Baertschi's peak is Hudler?

I'll be pretty disappointed if he isn't a 65-80 point player during his peak, he has the skill and the drive to reach those numbers in his prime.

[squirtle]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

After practicing alongside Baertschi, Backlund openly admitted that Sven was on a whole other level of skill than him. Sure, there may be similarities in production early on, but it's obvious one is going to be a more impactful player than the other, because of these skill sets.

I have little doubt that Backs will progress into a solid and reliable 2-way, top 9 forward with some upside though. At the same time, I'm not overly optimistic in my predictions, as I see Sven as becoming a 2nd line playmaker who can put up 40-50 points and might peak at 60.

Source? I would really like to read more about this

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

If we can drop our StL pick down for a later 1st and a 2nd and our Pitt pick for a couple 2nds I'd be comfortable taking one or more of the dmen you mention, of course depending who is still available at the StL and Pitt pick. Lots of question marks after the top 15 or so and the Euros outside of Lindholm and Nichushkin make me uneasy. Too many bad memories of Jesper Mattson and the Swedish Wendel Clark, Niklas Sunblad.

Are you seriously uneasy based on something that happened +20 years ago? That's ridiculous. Drafting has changed so much in the past two decades—hell, it is now demonstrably different than it was even 10 years ago!—there is virtually little chance that we will ever see these sorts of selection errors in this day and age. There is simply too much available and widely disseminated information to see repeats of these sorts of debacles in the 21st century. Not that mistakes won't continue to happen, but they will not be repeated to the same degree, on the same level, and based on the same sort of want for quality information about European players.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Baertschi's production is marginally better than Backlunds. At 20 years old, Backlund put up 10 points in 23 games playing a minute less ice-time per game.

Based on their play, Baerstchi is showing the same promise Backlund did that age, which is the right stage for him to be right now.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Baertschi has been overrated by Flames fans but he is a good prospect and looks like he can be an NHL player. Right now I'm 50/50 if he's going to be a top 3 forward or a guy like Backlund that can be a 4-9 range forward. He really wasn't very good in the 2013 season but hopefully with a full training camp and another year getting older and stronger he will have a better season in the coming season.

The only thing really comparable between Baertschi and Backlund and their first NHL seasons is the final tally of numbers. Beyond that, there is a significant difference, and Baertschi is easily a much better prospect, and with a clearly higher ceiling than Backlund. Backlund in his first three seasons only once strung together a +2 game point streak, and had five multi-point games before the beginning of this season, through 137 games. Baertschi has only played a total of 25 games, and already has 2 multi-point games to his credit, and has twice hit the score sheet in 3+ consecutive games. His season may not have been great, but that fails to factor in how good he looked in his last 10 games. Backlund has yet to put together anything resembling Baertschi's 10 points in 7 games to finish the 2013 season. I really like both players, but Baertschi is pretty clearly the better prospect with the higher ceiling.

[Alberta_Beef]

I think I prefer the idea taking College bound players and European players with picks in the 5th round or later as they are usually long term projects anyways and getting 4 years before we have to sign them gives us more time to see if they are worth using a contract on. It would likely reduce the amount of Gaelan Patterson's and Ryley Grantham's we sign to ELCs.

[CliffFletcher]

I have to chuckle at this notion that Sutter 'convinced' ownership to hire more scouts and set up a farm team. As if that didn't occur to previous GMs.

The hiring of scouts and operation of farm teams are financial considerations. As with the Flames player payroll, they were subject to the falling and rising financial fortunes of the team, which followed the value of the CDN dollar and the economy of Alberta.

Sutter's tenure with the Flames coincides with the dramatically improved financial fortunes of the franchise, and of all other Canadian franchises. Any other GM would have overseen the expansion of the scouting and development system if given the resources. But even with more resources than his predecessors, Sutter was flat-out terrible at drafting and development, and is the reason he left this franchise in worse shape than he found it.

[Commandant]

A giant defenceman from Blainville (with roots in the Ivory Coast) who plays for the Victoriaville Tigres, is #57.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/06/...er-profile-57/

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Is that you Jay Feaster?

There were probably 2 very good reasons why Darryl picked SLIGHTLY more Western Canadian kids vs others:
1) He was trying to build a culture in Calgary of players wanting to play here, and being proud of this team.
2) Lack of scouts - he convinced ownership to expand the scouting department for what I think was every single season he was GM (and the drafting DID improve). Flames simply did not have enough manpower to adequately scout every league - hence a few more picks in the leagues they would get to see more often. Makes sense to me.

Also, as for drafting the 'big western Canadian' all grit no skill you mentioned - who drafted Backlund? Brodie? Erixon?

Seriously, go back through every one of Darryl's drafts and look at who he selected. Euros, OHL, QMJHL even (though I think only a couple at most in the Q). Not everyone was big and burly. He selected a lot of skilled and somewhat undersized players as well.

People just remember what they want to remember, instead of looking things up for themselves. Not only do you see players selected who pretty much the exact opposite of what you insist was his focus, but you can see an ever-improving draft. When did "High hockey IQ" become something the Flames drafted towards? Feaster's regime? When Weisbrod came aboard? No, it was under Darryl.

Once again, Darryl took over a team with horrible drafting and development. He himself BOMBED HORRIBLY at it for the first few years as well, but he started to make the changes necessary to adjust. You might argue it was slow in coming, but it did come, and Feaster just seems to be taking every ounce of credit for it.

Did Darryl make some blunders in the drafting philosophy and selections? YOU BET! However, he is also responsible for the improvement as well - both in investing in drafting and development, as well as what qualities the staff should be emphasizing on.

Darryl was not the "God" he seemed to be for years in Calgary, but on the same token, he was definitely not the devil either as people make him out to be.

Completely agree that drafting did improve during the latter half of his tenure. Why he does get crapped on was his willingness to trade away 2nds like candy while at the same time insisting that the pipeline was well stocked when everyone else knew otherwise.

People talk about meddling ownership but there is also meddling GMs. And when Tod Button said that the final call was Darryl's, I believe him and based on Duane Sutter's reaction to taking a small Swiss in the 1st round of 2011, I doubt that we would have picked him if Sutter was still in charge. Say what you will about Feaster, but he seems to let the scouts do their job without meddling.

I did go back and check out the draft picks under Sutter's reign and yes, he did draft from all over the world (exception Russia and limited Czech/Slovak picks) however he did stay close to home in rounds 1-3 and picked more OHL/QMJHL//Euro in later rounds (yes, Backlund, Erixon, Nemisz the exceptions) so the likelihood of these players turning out diminishes. I'm not anti-Western and would have been happy if Sutter picked Ennis instead of Nemisz, Green instead of Chucko, etc.

It wasn't the pro Western bias that us in this predicament and upon review i did present a simplistic reason for why our drafting sucked. Yes, Sutter began to turn it around but the 2003-2006 era really set us back and his willingness to trade away draft picks and prospects coupled with his simplistic view that kids from Western Canada would build a winning culture based on their birthplace are a couple of reasons why we were unable to build a strong prospect pool.

Yours truly, a proud multigenerational Western Canadian.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

After practicing alongside Baertschi, Backlund openly admitted that Sven was on a whole other level of skill than him. Sure, there may be similarities in production early on, but it's obvious one is going to be a more impactful player than the other, because of these skill sets.

I have little doubt that Backs will progress into a solid and reliable 2-way, top 9 forward with some upside though. At the same time, I'm not overly optimistic in my predictions, as I see Sven as becoming a 2nd line playmaker who can put up 40-50 points and might peak at 60.

I'll take the over for $1,000

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Commandant

A giant defenceman from Blainville (with roots in the Ivory Coast) who plays for the Victoriaville Tigres, is #57.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/06/...er-profile-57/

Couple of good scraps but as you say we are now looking at long term projects. It makes it obvious the second round is nowhere as good as the first. I wouldn't be trading any of our firsts (quality) for a couple of seconds (quantity) as has been suggested by some.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by moon

And much more from other leagues that didn't make it.



Only 5 guys in the 3rd round that year played more than him and he was the last pick in the round. Only 8 in the 2nd round played more than him. 33 guys drafted ahead of him never played in the league and another 14 played under 15 games.

So yes he wasn't a stud but getting 200 NHL games out of a guy is a decent 3rd round pick.



Sure hindsight we could have done better but so could basically everyone that didn't draft Corey Perry doesn't mean they are bad picks. Phaneuf was a very good pick at the time, not a reach for a Western kid



I am sure he liked Western kids and am not arguing that but it wasn't all they went, the Western kids were far from the majority of busts and it is very easy to deny that it was a Western bias that screwed this club and poor drafting overall.

Getting nothing from the Nemisz, Pelech, Erixon (during Sutter's tenure) are as big a problem with the club as any Western kid drafting. Taking Ramholt in the 2nd round that produced some top players is a huge problem.

Taking the Western kid in Phaneuf wasn't the problem it was the horrible trade made with him that was. For his first 3/4 years Phaneuf was a top 5 player from that draft while playing for the Flames.

Go back and look at the 2004 draft and look past round 3 - lots of good nhl careers and none of them with the Flames. Much better players than Boyd were taken after he was selected.


Phaneuf was a great pick as a physical specimen and skill but lousy on character and hockey sense. Therebis a mystique about him that results kn him being rated as one of the most overrated players in the league. Thankfully the team looked at hockey sense and character later in Sutter's tenure and continues to this day.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Are you seriously uneasy based on something that happened +20 years ago? That's ridiculous. Drafting has changed so much in the past two decades—hell, it is now demonstrably different than it was even 10 years ago!—there is virtually little chance that we will ever see these sorts of selection errors in this day and age. There is simply too much available and widely disseminated information to see repeats of these sorts of debacles in the 21st century. Not that mistakes won't continue to happen, but they will not be repeated to the same degree, on the same level, and based on the same sort of want for quality information about European players.

Look at the Euro class outside of Lindholm/Barkov/Nichushkin and tell me that you are excited about these prospects, the exception maybe Ristolainen and Zykov. If guys like Horvat, Domi are gone by 22 and there is a plethora of Euros there, I wouldn't blame the Flames for picking Fucale (if he's still there) or trading down to get more picks.