Flames 2013 Draft Discussion

[bucksmasher]

Still boggles me that the Flames are so open about their process. I know stat analysis isn't new in selecting players but why declare anything to the competition that could possibly give them the slightest edge?

I would imagine these stats are compared and contrasted against scout generated player rankings.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not sure how anyone could be lukewarm or undecided on the 2011 draft. Despite only having 5 picks we ended up with:

1. Baertschi - we all know what he can and will bring
2. Granlund - Tied for 2nd in points at the World Juniors. Played okay in top finnish league after his brother left for North America. Still a project but has good skill
3. Wotherspoon - Surprised everyone by becoming a key member of Canada's blueline at the World Juniors. Played well in the WHL playoffs and Mem Cup. Looks very much like a future NHLer, perhaps as early as next season.
4. Gaudreau - Hobey Baker finalist. Lead the World Juniors in goals. Not much more he could've done. His stock his risen dramatically since being drafted. One of our best prospects.
5. Brossoit - Questionable cut from the World Juniors. Dominated the WHL and took his team to the Mem Cup. Looks like good value from a 6th round goalie.

There's plenty of drafts from our past that didn't look as impressive two years later. You're selling that draft class short if you think they are indistinguishable from the average Flames draft. 2011 rightfully has people thinking that Flames have finally improved their drafting.

1. I haven't anointed Baertschi as a star yet although he looks promising, he didn't live up to the expectations of this board last year.

2.We've had other picks star in the World juniors and not amount to a lot.

3.Wotherspoon looks good, but lets wait to see how he handles pro hockey. He may turn out to be the best of the bunch though.

4. Gaudreau is interesting but it's still a toss up if he'll ever play in the NHL.

5. Brossoit has easily passed his test in the WHL but goalies are a crap shoot.

I don't want to be a pessimist but we've been just as gung ho for other drafts and few turn out. I really hope they all do great but I'm not ready to call it a great draft until I see some results.

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

1. I haven't anointed Baertschi as a star yet although he looks promising, he didn't live up to the expectations of this board last year.

2.We've had other picks star in the World juniors and not amount to a lot.

3.Wotherspoon looks good, but lets wait to see how he handles pro hockey. He may turn out to be the best of the bunch though.

4. Gaudreau is interesting but it's still a toss up if he'll ever play in the NHL.

5. Brossoit has easily passed his test in the WHL but goalies are a crap shoot.

I don't want to be a pessimist but we've been just as gung ho for other drafts and few turn out. I really hope they all do great but I'm not ready to call it a great draft until I see some results.

People have been saying in here that we can't judge the past two drafts yet. Yes what they do in the NHL is what matters, but almost all our picks over those drafts have shown significant progression in their development. That gives some of us here a reason for optimism.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I don't want to be a pessimist but we've been just as gung ho for other drafts and few turn out. I really hope they all do great but I'm not ready to call it a great draft until I see some results.

How gung ho we are or not is irrelevant. Our course optimistic fans will see any draft class in the best light possible. I see what you are saying that hype is nothing til proven and most Flames prospects get hyped.

However what is different about 2011 from almost any other Flames draft that I can recall is that the players are progressing and impressing everybody, not just Flames fans. You've got people not affiliated with the Flames praising Gaudreau at the WJC's and in college, praising Wotherspoon at the WJC's and the Mem Cup, praising Brossoit in the playoffs, considering Baertschi one of the top prospects outside the NHL, etc.

This isn't like Howse putting up 50 goals in the WHL and us getting excited that he might be a sniper despite all the question marks in his game while nobody outside of Calgary thinks he'll be anything special.

What we have with the 2011 draftees is a group of kids that has progressed and developed to the point where they are amongst the elite in their age group. They really can't have done much more besides make the NHL already to prove they are good, quality prospects.

I really to think to say the 2011 is like every other group until they make the NHL is misleading. They have already in the 2 years since being drafted proven more than any other draft class I can remember in the last 15 or so years. 5 out of the 5 guys we picked still look very promising from that draft and we are likely to end up with at least 3 good NHLers from that group IMO.

Based on all the data and information we have so far, 2011 was a tremendous success for the Flames based on how many picks we had and where those picks were. So I don't think any pessimists in the house can come down too hard on those that believe the Flames drafting has shown some better results lately.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not sure how anyone could be lukewarm or undecided on the 2011 draft. Despite only having 5 picks we ended up with:

1. Baertschi - we all know what he can and will bring
2. Granlund - Tied for 2nd in points at the World Juniors. Played okay in top finnish league after his brother left for North America. Still a project but has good skill
3. Wotherspoon - Surprised everyone by becoming a key member of Canada's blueline at the World Juniors. Played well in the WHL playoffs and Mem Cup. Looks very much like a future NHLer, perhaps as early as next season.
4. Gaudreau - Hobey Baker finalist. Lead the World Juniors in goals. Not much more he could've done. His stock his risen dramatically since being drafted. One of our best prospects.
5. Brossoit - Questionable cut from the World Juniors. Dominated the WHL and took his team to the Mem Cup. Looks like good value from a 6th round goalie.

There's plenty of drafts from our past that didn't look as impressive two years later. You're selling that draft class short if you think they are indistinguishable from the average Flames draft. 2011 rightfully has people thinking that Flames have finally improved their drafting.

I like the 2011 draft also. Granted its going to take some time to find out if it is as good as i think it was. The funny part is that it is not a Weisbrod draft, it is a Button draft.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

So you think anyone just picks Jones under Colorado even if there isn't a dire need on their team for a really good defenceman just because he is rated high ? regardless of teams needs ?

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I like the 2011 draft also. Granted its going to take some time to find out if it is as good as i think it was. The funny part is that it is not a Weisbrod draft, it is a Button draft.

Yeah exactly. Its kind of funny to see people who keep saying the Flames are drafting better; really, its 99% Button and his staff, and Weisbrod might get in a game or two (Feaster might try and catch something on Youtube)... is it getting better? 2011 looks hopeful, but its the same guys drafting as 5 years ago, 10 years ago etc.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Yeah exactly. Its kind of funny to see people who keep saying the Flames are drafting better; really, its 99% Button and his staff, and Weisbrod might get in a game or two (Feaster might try and catch something on Youtube)... is it getting better? 2011 looks hopeful, but its the same guys drafting as 5 years ago, 10 years ago etc.

Well it is clear the drafting philosophy and what the scouts are looking for has changed. According to Feaster Weisbroad is the guy who has complete control over the draft and I think he is quite involved and has watched more than a game or 2.

You can train people to value different things when evaluating players and it can't be denied that the Flames have drafted different types of players under Feaster than they did under Weisbroad.

Pelech was drafted to replace Warrener, Irving drafted to take over from Kipper. These were not the BPA these were organizational needs (attemped) to be filled by drafting who they thought the BPA was at the position of need. I think the Flames are looking at the BPA on their list regardless of position now which is another big change.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Well it is clear the drafting philosophy and what the scouts are looking for has changed. According to Feaster Weisbroad is the guy who has complete control over the draft and I think he is quite involved and has watched more than a game or 2.

You can train people to value different things when evaluating players and it can't be denied that the Flames have drafted different types of players under Feaster than they did under Weisbroad.

Pelech was drafted to replace Warrener, Irving drafted to take over from Kipper. These were not the BPA these were organizational needs (attemped) to be filled by drafting who they thought the BPA was at the position of need. I think the Flames are looking at the BPA on their list regardless of position now which is another big change.

What?

Proof please?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

What?

Proof please?

Ryan Pike
June 06 2012 09:02AM




I had the opportunity to attend an event on Tuesday night held by the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto at the Palliser. The event was part of their Leadership Speakers Series and featured author Jason Farris, who's also an executive with the Dallas Stars, and Calgary Flames general manager Jay Feaster. Feaster is one of 35 general managers featured in Farris' new book, Behind the Moves: NHL General Managers Tell How Winners Are Built.




In addition to discussing the book and swapping hockey stories, Feaster chatted with members of the audience following the formal Q&A part of the evening. Since we're headed towards the draft, I asked him about the retention of Tod Button.



Feaster explained that a lot of the rationale lies in how players were being evaluated prior to past drafts. Right now, the Flames are looking at maximizing assets and getting the best player available – he cited a hypothetical: if the Flames thought a 5-foot-9 player was the best available, they'd take him even though they already have Paul Byron and Johnny Gaudreau in the organization, because not everyone is going to play for the Flames and assets can always be moved.


In addition, the Flames reportedly used to draft based on perceived need. In a past draft, for example, the Flames decided that they needed to draft an eventual replacement for an aging Rhett Warrener. (This could be referring to the 2005 drafting of Matt Pelech, although the Flames have drafted many big/physical/clunky d-men in the past.).

From: http://flamesnation.ca/2012/6/6/a-sm...lames-drafting

[Phanuthier]

^ Reported by who?

And why not bold this?
(This could be referring to the 2005 drafting of Matt Pelech, although the Flames have drafted many big/physical/clunky d-men in the past.).

Seems like lots of speculation to me.

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Yeah exactly. Its kind of funny to see people who keep saying the Flames are drafting better; really, its 99% Button and his staff, and Weisbrod might get in a game or two (Feaster might try and catch something on Youtube)... is it getting better? 2011 looks hopeful, but its the same guys drafting as 5 years ago, 10 years ago etc.

Same guys drafting from 10 years ago? I'm not positive, but I think there's been a decent amount of turnover since then.

[Max Cow Disease]

I was at the same session and can't recall the exact wording but it definitely did sound like Pelech (or someone very similar taken around the same time frame...) was drafted to replace the void left by Warrener's departure. They explained fairly thoroughly that the team's drafting at that stage was very much driven by succession plans of this nature.

[Joker]

I have heard(on the FAN i believe) that sutter didnt utilize his scouts and ended up making the decision on his own. Feaster CO. seems to let the scouts do their job.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Joker

I have heard(on the FAN i believe) that sutter didnt utilize his scouts and ended up making the decision on his own. Feaster CO. seems to let the scouts do their job.

I heard the same thing. Sutter used to use his own chart for the first couple of rounds and then let Button have input on the later rounds. Looking at what Button did in 2011, Sutter made a big mistake.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by bucksmasher

Still boggles me that the Flames are so open about their process. I know stat analysis isn't new in selecting players but why declare anything to the competition that could possibly give them the slightest edge?

I would imagine these stats are compared and contrasted against scout generated player rankings.

The stuff they were showing in the video is hardly proprietary; it's just the PUCKS software that anyone can buy if they want. That's not to say they don't have other methods of statistical analysis, but they weren't exactly revealing trade secrets there.

[H2SO4(aq)]

had a dream we moved up and got mackinnon. good things a comin boys

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Max Cow Disease

I was at the same session and can't recall the exact wording but it definitely did sound like Pelech (or someone very similar taken around the same time frame...) was drafted to replace the void left by Warrener's departure. They explained fairly thoroughly that the team's drafting at that stage was very much driven by succession plans of this nature.

I'd like to know more details... really? I won't name who, but there is a guy on CP I used to talk to that talked to Tod Button a lot ... during the time frame (up till 2006), the Flames always drafted BPA. I also know what (Feaster?) is saying is BS, because I know in one of those drafts who the Flames wanted to pick (a forward) but the guy was taken just before and who they ended up picking was Irving. I believe at the time of the draft, Darryl was very high on both Keetley/Lelande.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if it was Feaster who said this... Feaster common says a lot of things to try and distance himself from the previous regime.

Originally Posted by Joker

I have heard(on the FAN i believe) that sutter didnt utilize his scouts and ended up making the decision on his own. Feaster CO. seems to let the scouts do their job.

Its very very common for GM's to have major influence on 1st round picks. Feaster likely doesn't, a large part because he doesn't scout. Most GM's scout, Feaster doesn't.

[Phanuthier]

Oh and not to mention, at the time of the draft, we had just picked Dion Phaneuf in 2003, our strength was on the blueline and Darryl talked endlessly about wanting a No 1 C (I remember in one of his interviews, saying he had a dream once that Steven Reinprecht was healthy and how great it was to have a No 1 C).

Never did I recall Darryl talking about having a success plan for their No 4-5 defenseman, especially for a 1st round pick. Thats ludicrous.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

1. I haven't anointed Baertschi as a star yet although he looks promising, he didn't live up to the expectations of this board last year.

2.We've had other picks star in the World juniors and not amount to a lot.

3.Wotherspoon looks good, but lets wait to see how he handles pro hockey. He may turn out to be the best of the bunch though.

4. Gaudreau is interesting but it's still a toss up if he'll ever play in the NHL.

5. Brossoit has easily passed his test in the WHL but goalies are a crap shoot.

I don't want to be a pessimist but we've been just as gung ho for other drafts and few turn out. I really hope they all do great but I'm not ready to call it a great draft until I see some results.

1.) He definitely underwhelmed at the beginning of the season. However, when he finally got a decent amount of meaningful minutes (not on the 4th line) he looked very good. 7 game point streak to end the season with 10 points in those 7 games.

2.) Agreed

3.) Agreed

4.) A toss up if he'll ever play in the NHL? Hanowksi got into 5 games this season and I think we can all agree, Johnny is a much much higher skilled prospect than Ben. Not saying Gaudreau's career goal should be to play 5 NHL games, but he'll definitely suit up for this team.

5.) Agreed, goalies are a complete crapshoot. But we don't just have Brossoit. Gillies had a great freshman year, and who knows, maybe Ortio has greatly improved since his last AHL showing.

[djsFlames]

Nobody should be reading much into Sven's last season. It really doesn't alter my opinion on him, because it was absurd to expect him to immediately step up in his rookie season. But 10 points in 20 games for production is excellent for any player in that situation. He's already producing at a higher click than Backlund was in his debut. You just know that he's bound to be a top 6 once he gets the hang of the speed and physicality of the big league, he's too skilled not too.