Don't Snicker, there's a chocolate conspiracy

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by blankall

Off topic but...

That's the tax man.

Between income, corporate, environmental, sales, direct gasoline taxes, etc... a crap load of tax is getting passed on to the consumer. Taxes on gasoline, both direct and indirect, account for a huge part of the government's operating budget.

No I get that, but isn't the tax set? Is there significant fluctuation, sometimes weekly, on fuel tax?

[Voodooman]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

That's not how this works.

undercoverbrother made a claim, Flames in 07 asked him to back up that claim.

Fair enough. Although I am reminded of the line "Absence of proof is not proof of absence".

I think many people, myself included, are very suspicious of gasoline prices, specifically in comparison to other Canadian markets. For example, in Ontario, gas prices fluctuate on a daily basis, and you will see difference in price within the same markets. In Calgary, the price is consistent across the city, and rarely moves. I fully realize that this is a weak argument, but it does raise an eyebrow.

Where I think my argument gets a bit stronger is when you factor in provincial taxes and do a price comparison. For example, the fuel tax in Alberta for clear gasoline is 9 cents/litre, with no PST. In Ontario, the fuel tax is 14.3 cents/litre, with a 8% PST portion on the HST. Assuming a wholesale cost of $1.00/litre, gas should be $1.14/litre in Alberta (fuel tax + GST) and $1.273/litre in Ontario (fuel tax + HST). However, the market price today is $1.28/litre in Calgary and $1.27/litre in Ottawa and Toronto.

I realize that this is a very simplistic comparison, and there are issues of supply and demand, refining capacity and 14 other things involved in the price of gas. However, to flat out deny that there is any manipulation of the price of gasoline is dubious.

In any case, sorry to hijack the thread from the more important issue at hand. I look forward to receiving my settlement from the class action lawsuit to come. The real question will be to figure out the amount payable. Perhaps a fixed rate X BMI? Makes sense that the fatter I am, the more I've likely been a victim of price gouging on the chocolate and snack food market.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

That's not the rules of the internet, that's basic stuff here. If you make a claim, you have to back it up. Can't believe you don't understand that.

Nice work ignoring the second part of my post.

All I said was "and yet the price of fuel continues to roll along......." as a consumer it appears that there is price fixing. In my industry we get competition trying to undercut our prices all the time. In the retail fuel industry there does not appear to any attempts at under cutting or gaining a greater market share through competitive pricing.

Are you saying that a consumer has no right to draw that conclusion?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Nice work ignoring the second part of my post.

I wasn't ignoring the 2nd part of your post, I'm not interested in the gas debate and would be out of my depth if I waded in. All I was pointing out that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the other way round.

That's it, that's all.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No I get that, but isn't the tax set? Is there significant fluctuation, sometimes weekly, on fuel tax?

All goods and services fluctuate in price. Fuel fluctuates more quickly, because the end product is closer to the raw resource.

If you look at things like oranges, they will fluctuate quickly if there is a sudden drop in supply. However, they'll normally change in price more steadily as their price is usually controlled by bigger factors like input and fuel prices, labour, etc...

Other goods that fluctuate like fuel would be things like gold, silver, etc..

In other words, when the supply is determined by the availability of the good itself, you see sharper ups and downs. When the supply is determined by larger factors in the economy, you tend to see a steady move that is dependent on the economy.

[Voodooman]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No I get that, but isn't the tax set? Is there significant fluctuation, sometimes weekly, on fuel tax?

Actually, in Alberta, Fuel Taxes have not increased since April 1991, when they went from 7 to 9 cents/litre. And the provincial corporate rate has fallen from 15.5% to 10% in the same period, and the GST decreased from 7 to 5%. So overall, the retail taxes on fuel have remained consistent over the past 20 years.

[CaramonLS]

I don't have any proof of other Industries fixing price, however, I would not be surprised if things like this were happening.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Voodooman

Fair enough. Although I am reminded of the line "Absence of proof is not proof of absence".

I think many people, myself included, are very suspicious of gasoline prices, specifically in comparison to other Canadian markets. For example, in Ontario, gas prices fluctuate on a daily basis, and you will see difference in price within the same markets. In Calgary, the price is consistent across the city, and rarely moves. I fully realize that this is a weak argument, but it does raise an eyebrow.

Where I think my argument gets a bit stronger is when you factor in provincial taxes and do a price comparison. For example, the fuel tax in Alberta for clear gasoline is 9 cents/litre, with no PST. In Ontario, the fuel tax is 14.3 cents/litre, with a 8% PST portion on the HST. Assuming a wholesale cost of $1.00/litre, gas should be $1.14/litre in Alberta (fuel tax + GST) and $1.273/litre in Ontario (fuel tax + HST). However, the market price today is $1.28/litre in Calgary and $1.27/litre in Ottawa and Toronto.

I realize that this is a very simplistic comparison, and there are issues of supply and demand, refining capacity and 14 other things involved in the price of gas. However, to flat out deny that there is any manipulation of the price of gasoline is dubious.

In any case, sorry to hijack the thread from the more important issue at hand. I look forward to receiving my settlement from the class action lawsuit to come. The real question will be to figure out the amount payable. Perhaps a fixed rate X BMI? Makes sense that the fatter I am, the more I've likely been a victim of price gouging on the chocolate and snack food market.

People are suspicious, as you say because what else is posted on every corner, and easy for everyone to see and compare as gas prices? The answer is nothing. Further its tied to a openly traded commodity, that has increased significantly over the years. And lastly, as you point out it's tied to 14 other things, or in other words has many factors that influence the price.

People aren't suspicious because there is actually any illegal behavior (think about it, what would make any politician, auditor or anyone with an oversight responsibility more popular than to crack a big retail gas conspiracy?)

Other things vary in price as much as gasoline, but there's no experts like undercover who falsely accuse the hotel industry, the airline industry, rental car industry or dozens of others industries about prices changing due to changes in supply or demand.

But since Undercover knows something everyone else doesn't, I'm still waiting for his insight.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

People are suspicious, as you say because what else is posted on every corner, and easy for everyone to see and compare as gas prices? The answer is nothing. Further its tied to a openly traded commodity, that has increased significantly over the years. And lastly, as you point out it's tied to 14 other things, or in other words has many factors that influence the price.

People aren't suspicious because there is actually any illegal behavior (think about it, what would make any politician, auditor or anyone with an oversight responsibility more popular than to crack a big retail gas conspiracy?)

Other things vary in price as much as gasoline, but there's no experts like undercover who falsely accuse the hotel industry, the airline industry, rental car industry or dozens of others industries about prices changing due to changes in supply or demand.

But since Undercover knows something everyone else doesn't, I'm still waiting for his insight.

Canadian Tire pleads guilty in gas price-fixing scheme

The pleas in a Brockville courtroom came after a bureau investigation revealed evidence that “gas retailers or their representatives in these local markets phoned each other and agreed on the price they would charge customers for gasoline,” the bureau said in a press release.

The companies were fined a total of $2-million, with Pioneer facing a $985,000 fine and Mr. Gas, which pleaded guilty to price-fixing only in Brockville, will pay a $150,000 fine. They will also be subject to a court order for 10 years and must educate their employees about the Competition Act, the bureau said.

“Consumers in Kingston and Brockville were denied a competitive price for gasoline as a result of this criminal price-fixing cartel,” Melanie Aitken, the commissioner of competition, said in a statement. “The bureau will not hesitate to take action when it uncovers evidence of illegal price-fixing.”

The bureau said its investigation into gas-pump price fixing continues in the “Southeastern Ontario market.” Similar probes have resulted in numerous charges in Quebec. The Competition Bureau, granted new powers in 2009, has stepped up its enforcement in recent years.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...article534996/

[burn_this_city]

That's not exactly damning evidence of widespread collusion. Pioneer and Mr. Gas look like small mom and pop retailers.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

All I said was "and yet the price of fuel continues to roll along......." as a consumer it appears that there is price fixing. In my industry we get competition trying to undercut our prices all the time. In the retail fuel industry there does not appear to any attempts at under cutting or gaining a greater market share through competitive pricing.

I hereby direct you to research basic economics. Specifically, the concept of price and demand elasticity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(economics)

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Dion

Canadian Tire pleads guilty in gas price-fixing scheme



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...article534996/

ok. I was more thinking from an integrated producer perspective, not so much resellers who have their own control and discretion. I think there have been a few mom and pop reseller types in the US that have been charged as well, both for price fixing, which your case referrs to as well as predatory pricing, such as after a disaster.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

People are suspicious, as you say because what else is posted on every corner, and easy for everyone to see and compare as gas prices? The answer is nothing. Further its tied to a openly traded commodity, that has increased significantly over the years. And lastly, as you point out it's tied to 14 other things, or in other words has many factors that influence the price.

People aren't suspicious because there is actually any illegal behavior (think about it, what would make any politician, auditor or anyone with an oversight responsibility more popular than to crack a big retail gas conspiracy?)

Other things vary in price as much as gasoline, but there's no experts like undercover who falsely accuse the hotel industry, the airline industry, rental car industry or dozens of others industries about prices changing due to changes in supply or demand.

But since Undercover knows something everyone else doesn't, I'm still waiting for his insight.

Wow, the poster doth protest too much, methinks.....

I never said I have insider information on the pricing of retail fuel. I like many other have concerns that companies in this industry do not appear to compete against each other for customer's monies.

While this is not a huge list or particularly damning it shows that there have been issues:

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/e...eng/00235.html

I always find it interesting when someone throws their toys whenever the O & G industry is mentioned.

[CaptainCrunch]

This is just a black flag operation to distract people from the real truth. That Chocolate is a government created mind control substance that when combined with the government formula stolen from George Washinton Carver C57H104O6 creates very compliant television addicted zombies.

We're through the looking glass people. This isn't about price fixing, its hiding a shameful and terrifying secret that the World government doesn't want us to know.