06-06-2013, 11:12 AM
|
#61
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
|
You asked for an example of an abuse of authority, and Guantanamo Bay was his example.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 11:23 AM
|
#62
|
Has lived the dream!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Where I lay my head is home...
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
Do you understand what scope shifting means? I at no time discussed GB. I discussed the topic this thread is about. I brought up the court of law argument in relation to these alleged abuses. I said that I would be concerned when I see actual harm from these alleged abuses. If you want to have an argument with yourself about GB go ahead, I didn't discuss it.
|
Wow, you can be a massive (deep breath/serenity now!) sometimes. I know what scope shifting means. Just because you can use the term doesn't mean it belongs to you or that I am guilty of it. I've been holding my tongue thinking that maybe this was just a big misunderstanding, but apparently not. You are either so far into your own argument you refuse to see what I'm saying, or you just don't want to admit another point of view and the fact you may be wrong.
1. Collecting the data at all, would be considered an abuse. Maybe not under the new Patriot Act, but many civil liberty lawyers both in the US and abroad would agree. This is exactly why many people want the act to be repealed, and in fact cases like this are still shady on whether they step over the line or not.
2. While this information has not yet been used in anyway that we know, and that probably is only because we don't know enough about it yet, information gathered like this in the past has. So it's not unreasonable to believe this information either has, or will be used to abuse civil liberties.
3. Ways that illegially collected information has been used in the past include cases like GB and extraordinary rendition. While again I yield that this specific batch of information has not been tied to anything, I suggest that this is because we've only just found out about it. It is also my central argument that any information collected for no specific reason, which is a good term when a whole carriers data is collected, is privacy abuse, and will be used to further violate civil rights. Obviously the millions of Verizon customers are not suspected terrorists, and even those that are, have rights within the US constitution and legal framework while they are still 'suspected'.
So yes, this act in itself is an abuse, and history teaches us it will lead to further abuses. Bringing up the abuses it has historically lead to is not scope shifting in anyway. And even if you believe it is, you asked about abuses and the use of such information in a court of law, so it's only natural to bring up history on the issue as this example is just breaking.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 11:25 AM
|
#63
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
You asked for an example of an abuse of authority, and Guantanamo Bay was his example.
|
No I didn't, I asked for an example of this policy being abused. Unless the argument is that people are being swept out of the US and into GB on the basis of this data it is not relevant.
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 11:28 AM
|
#64
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daradon
Wow, you can be a massive (deep breath/serenity now!) sometimes. I know what scope shifting means. Just because you can use the term doesn't mean it belongs to you or that I am guilty of it. I've been holding my tongue thinking that maybe this was just a big misunderstanding, but apparently not. You are either so far into your own argument you refuse to see what I'm saying, or you just don't want to admit another point of view and the fact you may be wrong.
1. Collecting the data at all, would be considered an abuse. Maybe not under the new Patriot Act, but many civil liberty lawyers both in the US and abroad would agree. This is exactly why many people want the act to be repealed, and in fact cases like this are still shady on whether they step over the line or not.
2. While this information has not yet been used in anyway that we know, and that probably is only because we don't know enough about it yet, information gathered like this in the past has. So it's not unreasonable to believe this information either has, or will be used to abuse civil liberties.
3. Ways that illegially collected information has been used in the past include cases like GB and extraordinary rendition. While again I yield that this specific batch of information has not been tied to anything, I suggest that this is because we've only just found out about it. It is also my central argument that any information collected for no specific reason, which is a good term when a whole carriers data is collected, is privacy abuse, and will be used to further violate civil rights. Obviously the millions of Verizon customers are not suspected terrorists, and even those that are, have rights within the US constitution and legal framework while they are still 'suspected'.
So yes, this act in itself is an abuse, and history teaches us it will lead to further abuses. Bringing up the abuses it has historically lead to is not scope shifting in anyway. And even if you believe it is, you asked about abuses and the use of such information in a court of law, so it's only natural to bring up history on the issue as this example is just breaking.
|
1. I disagree. I should expand on this. I disagree because I see this as high level data gathering, as opposed to individualized and targeted data gathering. I have issues with the Patriot Act, but to me this is pretty small potatoes. As others have said, we already hand over much more information to the government on a daily basis.
2. As I expressly said, everything has the potential for abuse, I'll be concerned when I see evidence of actual abuse. This is also not something we have just found out about, as evidenced by the numerous people in this thread who have been aware of it for years.
3. I asked for examples of this data being abused, not historical evidence of abuse.
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
Last edited by valo403; 06-06-2013 at 11:36 AM.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 11:41 AM
|
#65
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
No I didn't, I asked for an example of this policy being abused. Unless the argument is that people are being swept out of the US and into GB on the basis of this data it is not relevant.
|
Well, I think I get Daradon's point as well as yours. I think I agree a bit more with him because by your standards we shouldnt be opposing legislation like this until its been abused, we have proof of the abuse and by then its too late.
I think Historical evidence of abuse of power given the opportunity, despite being different arenas of power or abuse, should certainly still factor into the decision making process when confronted by situations like these.
The US Government have means and opportunity to abuse power, they've historically shown willingness to abuse power, now all they need is motive. National Security. There, now theres motive.
I think thats highly indicative of the likelihood of this power being abused.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Locke For This Useful Post:
|
|
06-06-2013, 11:50 AM
|
#66
|
Had an idea!
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
Everything has the potential for abuse, you need to demonstrate actual abuse before you're going to have me concerned.
|
You don't think the US will abuse this technology? We are talking about the same government that routinely uses drones to kill 'enemy combatants' that they deem to be terrorists and dangerous based on extremely lax guidelines.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 11:56 AM
|
#67
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
You don't think the US will abuse this technology? We are talking about the same government that routinely uses drones to kill 'enemy combatants' that they deem to be terrorists and dangerous based on extremely lax guidelines.
|
I think you're talking about two vastly different theatres, one an international war zone and the other domestic. I don't see what makes this data more sensitive than all of the other data we willingly hand over to the government.
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 11:57 AM
|
#68
|
Had an idea!
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
No I didn't, I asked for an example of this policy being abused. Unless the argument is that people are being swept out of the US and into GB on the basis of this data it is not relevant.
|
Well considering how 'secret' everything is, do you actually think a private citizen would have access to that kind of information?
If the system is being abused, it will obviously be covered up.
The whole point is that historically an over reach of power by the state has never ended well. I get national security and all, but I do not think such a far-reaching program as the one mentioned in the OP is necessary.
I also see that Congress and all the morons who knew about this are in full on bull#### mode claiming how all of this protects the US.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 11:58 AM
|
#69
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
I think you're talking about two vastly different theatres, one an international war zone and the other domestic. I don't see what makes this data more sensitive than all of the other data we willingly hand over to the government.
|
I think you answered your own question there. If you willingly hand it over, you had a choice in the matter, in this situation they're just taking it and theres FA you can do about it.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 12:01 PM
|
#70
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
I think you answered your own question there. If you willingly hand it over, you had a choice in the matter, in this situation they're just taking it and theres FA you can do about it.
|
Not really. I didn't have a choice of whether or not to have a SIN. I guess I had a choice on whether or not to have medical records kept, but the choice was between having them kept and not going to the doctor. You have a similar choice here, don't use a phone (or get a burner, I tried to find a short clip of the 'burner' discussion from It's Always Sunny but failed).
__________________
When you do a signature and don't attribute it to anyone, it's yours. - Vulcan
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to valo403 For This Useful Post:
|
|
06-06-2013, 01:50 PM
|
#71
|
#1 Goaltender
|
You guys don't use pre paid phones and cycle them every 2 weeks? Have you not learned anything from The Wire. You get sloppy you are gonna get got!
|
|
|
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to fundmark19 For This Useful Post:
|
|
06-06-2013, 02:29 PM
|
#72
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by fundmark19
You guys don't use pre paid phones and cycle them every 2 weeks? Have you not learned anything from The Wire. You get sloppy you are gonna get got!
|
I still use a pager and pay phones.
__________________
Turn up the good, turn down the suck!
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 02:40 PM
|
#73
|
Norm!
|
Carrier pigeon and slave runners.
I don't know how people are surprised at the erosion of personal freedoms in any country. We all know the concept of democracy went through a radical change in the post 60's freedom era.
Instead of a simple model of choice and life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, we (citizens) demanded bolt tight security and Justice and to an extent order.
Well if you put choice and liberty and security (safety) on a triangle and have to pick two, how many pick choice and liberty over feeling secure?
Obviously the question is always, how is this information used. I'm sure in the immediate aftermath of the Boston bombing people would have had a required sense of security, and something like this phone tapping for want of a better word would have been required.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 03:54 PM
|
#74
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 127.0.0.1
|
I also heard Obama was buying up all of the ammunition also.
__________________
Pass the bacon.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 05:13 PM
|
#75
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On your last nerve...:D
|
This is making the rounds - anything to it?
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 05:36 PM
|
#76
|
#1 Goaltender
|
So much for "just a tin foil hat conspiracy" eh CP? Hahaha.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 06:33 PM
|
#77
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
|
I have nothing to hide, nor have I done anything wrong. What I have an issue is that the government uses that theory to do this illegally, what is the next thing they're going to do illegally but justifies it by saying "if you have nothing to hide or did nothing wrong" excuse to infringe on more of our rights.
__________________
Thank you for everything CP. Good memories and thankful for everything that has been done to help me out. I will no longer take part on these boards. Take care, Go Flames Go.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 06:37 PM
|
#78
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
Let's turn this up a notch. Oh and hi Uncle Sam, how's it going?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...iants-nsa-data
Quote:
The National Security Agency has obtained direct access to the systems of Google, Facebook, Apple and other US internet giants, according to a top secret document obtained by the Guardian.
The NSA access is part of a previously undisclosed program called PRISM, which allows officials to collect material including search history, the content of emails, file transfers and live chats, the document says.
The Guardian has verified the authenticity of the document, a 41-slide PowerPoint presentation – classified as top secret with no distribution to foreign allies – which was apparently used to train intelligence operatives on the capabilities of the program. The document claims "collection directly from the servers" of major US service providers.
Although the presentation claims the program is run with the assistance of the companies, all those who responded to a Guardian request for comment on Thursday denied knowledge of any such program.
|
Starting to sound like some whistleblower somewhere is busy leaking stuff to the Guardian.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 06:41 PM
|
#79
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
Oh yeah, and about that abuse of rights, here's a little something from the same article.
Quote:
The revelation also supports concerns raised by several US senators during the renewal of the Fisa Amendments Act in December 2012, who warned about the scale of surveillance the law might enable, and shortcomings in the safeguards it introduces.
When the FAA was first enacted, defenders of the statute argued that a significant check on abuse would be the NSA's inability to obtain electronic communications without the consent of the telecom and internet companies that control the data. But the PRISM program renders that consent unnecessary, as it allows the agency to directly and unilaterally seize the communications off the companies' servers.
|
Quote:
Senator Christopher Coons of Delaware specifically warned that the secrecy surrounding the various surveillance programs meant there was no way to know if safeguards within the act were working.
"The problem is: we here in the Senate and the citizens we represent don't know how well any of these safeguards actually work," he said.
"The law doesn't forbid purely domestic information from being collected. We know that at least one Fisa court has ruled that the surveillance program violated the law. Why? Those who know can't say and average Americans can't know."
|
Last edited by Itse; 06-06-2013 at 06:46 PM.
|
|
|
06-06-2013, 06:51 PM
|
#80
|
Had an idea!
|
Yep, getting worse and worse.
Somehow I always figured this was happening with the Patriot Act and everything, but of course you could never prove it.
Scary stuff.
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:10 PM.
|
|