Confirmed: the US government has a massive program to track all phone calls

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The bigger scandal is my wife not informing me of Steak & BJ day!

You would not want her to get cancer, right?

Don't feel bad because my wife is vegan, so in my house this day is known as
Thursday......I keep hoping that one of these years her headache will subside....not that I am bitter, or anything.....

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Locke

You'd think people would be more upset. On what grounds did a court issue an order to collect telephone information on ordinary citizens who have been accused of no crimes? Where was the probable cause?

If they do it for phones, what else are they doing it for?

Time for me to invest in the American tin-foil industry because they just might have a point.

I'm honestly surprised at reaction to anything to do with rights being taken away/abused in Canada/America. People generally just don't seem to care that much. The prevailing responses along the lines of "meh, don't do anything wrong and it won't be an issue".

Not to go all MikeytheRedneck, but with the way these two countries slowly change laws one by one to give the government/police more "access" to people's personal lives and more "ability" to deal with them, I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years or so people are going "holy ****, our governments have the ability to watch/monitor us doing almost anything and we have very little rights when they want to "investigate"; When and how did we let this happen?"

And the awnser will be; Slowly over time, by not providing any resistance to the government.

Again, I apologize for the "tinfoil hat" style post on CP, as I know they are frowned upon and mocked here, but I truley believe we're (the US more so than Canada, although Canada seems to eventually adopt everything the US does) headed in a very controlled direction, and the "freedom" will shift from the people to the State.

[Locke]

I'm not one for climbing the barricades and priming muskets, so if this were a Canadian issue, what could I reasonably do?

Write my MLA? They're too busy spending my tax money on their minibar tab. (We as Canadians have significantly less severe issues...)

[SebC]

Person of Interest: based on a true story.

[pylon]

Cool, they can listen to my 'calling a buddy and farting into the phone then hanging up' calls all they want. That is the basis of about 70% of my phone usage.

[Mr.Coffee]

I feel like there'd have to be an enormous workforce to sort out all the phone calls.

Since they probably dont employ 800,000 people in a warehouse to specifically listen to every phonecall, and they probably just have technology that picks up on certain words like LETS BOMB BOSTON or similar intent, I suspect that if you don't say these things, you don't really have to worry about it.

There are folks in this thread already throwing out the counter that people in our society are soft on these objectionable infringements on our rights and freedoms, but I do have to ask what difference it makes if they listen to your request to a 17 year old kid at Pizza Hut that you'd rather not have olives.

The only thing the government needs to stick to, quite frankly, is being transparent themselves. That's why good leaders are people you can trust, like Nenshi, who's whole fataing premise is structured around transparency and honesty. Our current Canadian federal government has proven they don't exhibit these qualities, they'll be voted out next election, watch.

The one thing the tinfoil group has right though, is the secret order from the court. That's wrong in my mind.

[Muta]

While it sucks to know the government does that, the joke is on them if they have to listen to one of my phone calls to my friends. That's 10 minutes of garbage they'll never get back.

[zamler]

So, do the criminal masterminds of the world really pick up the telephone and chat about their devious plans on an open line?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I feel like there'd have to be an enormous workforce to sort out all the phone calls.

Since they probably dont employ 800,000 people in a warehouse to specifically listen to every phonecall, and they probably just have technology that picks up on certain words like LETS BOMB BOSTON or similar intent, I suspect that if you don't say these things, you don't really have to worry about it.

There are folks in this thread already throwing out the counter that people in our society are soft on these objectionable infringements on our rights and freedoms, but I do have to ask what difference it makes if they listen to your request to a 17 year old kid at Pizza Hut that you'd rather not have olives.

The only thing the government needs to stick to, quite frankly, is being transparent themselves. That's why good leaders are people you can trust, like Nenshi, who's whole fataing premise is structured around transparency and honesty. Our current Canadian federal government has proven they don't exhibit these qualities, they'll be voted out next election, watch.

The one thing the tinfoil group has right though, is the secret order from the court. That's wrong in my mind.

I doubt they're actually listening to them all, but the fact that they have the right and ability to for no legal reason should still definitely be cause for concern.

It doesnt matter what you've said or whether it was incriminating or just boring, its the matter of the fact that they shouldnt have the right to spy on you for no reason other than that they want to.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Locke

I doubt they're actually listening to them all, but the fact that they have the right and ability to for no legal reason should still definitely be cause for concern.

It doesnt matter what you've said or whether it was incriminating or just boring, its the matter of the fact that they shouldnt have the right to spy on you for no reason other than that they want to.

Their reason is national security.

And yes, terrorist cells probably actually do use phones, well, probably less so now that this is all public.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

And yes, terrorist cells probably actually do use phones, well, probably less so now that this is all public.

The terrorists are now just finding this out? Damn, they be dumb it's a wonder they accomplish anything at all.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Their reason is national security.

And yes, terrorist cells probably actually do use phones, well, probably less so now that this is all public.

And when do the sacrifices on the altar of National Security stop?

I dont think theres any such thing as a secure nation.

[Mr.Coffee]

No no, I meant when this whole wire tapping thing started.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Locke

And when do the sacrifices on the altar of National Security stop?

I dont think theres any such thing as a secure nation.

Probably later on, like when rights that actually matter are infringed upon. You haven't really provided a lot of good arguments as to why listening to your conversation is such a huge infringement upon you. I honestly don't understand yet why you'd care.

You seem like you're moving towards the slippery slope argument, which is usually pretty crappy.

[zamler]

And who decides what rights actually matter? Talk about a terrible argument.

[Dion]

EFF is fighting these illegal activities in the courts. Currently, EFF is representing victims of the illegal surveillance program in Jewel v. NSA, a lawsuit filed in September 2008 seeking to stop the warrantless wiretapping and hold the government and government officials officials behind the program accountable.

Previously, in Hepting v. AT&T, EFF filed the first case against a cooperating telecom for violating its customers' privacy. After Congress expressly intervened in the FISA Amendments Act to allow the Executive to require dismissal of the case, the case was ultimately dismissed by the US Supreme Court.

Other ongoing cases arising from the warrantless wiretapping are:

Al Haramain v. Obama
Amnesty International v. Clapper
Center for Constitutional Rights v. Bush
Shubert v. Obama

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by pylon

Cool, they can listen to my 'calling a buddy and farting into the phone then hanging up' calls all they want. That is the basis of about 70% of my phone usage.

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I feel like there'd have to be an enormous workforce to sort out all the phone calls.

Since they probably dont employ 800,000 people in a warehouse to specifically listen to every phonecall, and they probably just have technology that picks up on certain words like LETS BOMB BOSTON or similar intent, I suspect that if you don't say these things, you don't really have to worry about it.

Originally Posted by Muta

While it sucks to know the government does that, the joke is on them if they have to listen to one of my phone calls to my friends. That's 10 minutes of garbage they'll never get back.

I think the practice is wrong, wrong, wrong, but phone calls are not being listened to, which you'd have know if you'd taken the time to read the article and make an informed contribution.

Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered

.

[Daradon]

Yup, Obama has been using the Patriot Act and other new legislation that Bush put into place to continue most if not all of these policies. As has been reported several times he's used it to exponentially increase the drone war.

Pretty messed up, he was supposed to help put these civil liberties back into place, not build projects on the legislation that eroded them.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Probably later on, like when rights that actually matter are infringed upon. You haven't really provided a lot of good arguments as to why listening to your conversation is such a huge infringement upon you. I honestly don't understand yet why you'd care.

You seem like you're moving towards the slippery slope argument, which is usually pretty crappy.

First of all, there is such a thing as right to privacy.

Second, this is one slippery slope argument that has solid historical evidence to back it up. Unchecked surveillance rights have pretty much always ended up being abused, for reasons varying from the personal (checking up on your wife or girlfriend) to the political (spying on your opponents) to semi-professional (police harassing people who have for example complained about police violence).

Third, the US government officials have historically speaking not been exactly tolerant towards whistleblowers and critics who have access to material they think could actually be damaging. Rights like these are perfect for following up on large groups of suspected whistleblowers, intimidating people etc.

When the goverment has unchecked rights to spy on whoever it wants, it makes it that much harder to criticize and fight back against a government when it's doing something wrong.

Think for example what will happen if the US government goes just a little bit more hardline on demonstrators, Turkey-style. The difference right now is not huge. If the Turkish government would have this kind of resources, it would be much easier for the police to fight the demonstrators, who really are mostly just demanding that the police stop their brutalities.

People are extemely ignorant when it comes to living in a free society. They always tend to think that because nobody is infringing on their rights now, it could never really happen. But civil liberties are not a constant. They move backwards and forwards in various times. And historically speaking, much less blood is shed in countries that constantly hold on to their civil rights and don't let them slip away.

It wasn't that long ago that US was a country with regular rioting against what was perceived as an overly oppressive government protected by police brutality. A good number of people died and everything. Those kinds of times are not the times when you want the police to be their own guardians.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Google, Facebook and Apple (among others) probably know everything you do - where you go, how you spend your money, who you associate with, what's going in in your life - and literally track all your electronic life. That creeps me out.

The government knowing who calls whom, not so much. They have my whole medical history, employment, financial, residential, and family history. Pretty much the only thing they don't have is my DNA.

I think it is worth fighting about how an when people use data, but whether they get your data is akin to arguing whether they should be allowed to tax us. To me anyway. Today anyway.