[GDT] Jays Series Thread - at Padres May 31 - June 2

[KelVarnsen]

Or Cecil.

[GirlySports]

Rasmus has been on fire. He was 8-for-16 in San Diego and hit a lot of left handed pitching.

[Erick Estrada]

Will Gibbons last the season? He was a surprise hire and now it appears there was a reason for that. It's just not working out and it appears media, fans, and management overestimated the talent on this team.

[Rapidfire999]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Will Gibbons last the season? He was a surprise hire and now it appears there was a reason for that. It's just not working out and it appears media, fans, and management overestimated the talent on this team.

Not sure if it's really the talent. It's something else because the talent is defintely there.. It's just not working

[moon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Will Gibbons last the season? He was a surprise hire and now it appears there was a reason for that. It's just not working out and it appears media, fans, and management overestimated the talent on this team.

I am not saying he will or won't be fired but hard to see what is his fault this year.

The team, fans and media that thought this was a WS contending team were relying on everything going right and lots of guys bucking the trend/keeping up career year level numbers.

I think that AA went out on a limb to hire him and seemed to talk about how his personal relationship and what he saw out of him last time he was in TO was a big reason he was hired will buy him time from AA to at least the end of the year. With Rogers being a corporation now, not one man, also much less that they have a knee jerk reaction to force AA to make a move.

[GirlySports]

AA just wanted to hire a guy who wouldn't jump ship, so he hired a guy that pretty much can't get a job anywhere else.

I don't think it ever was a World Series team but it shouldn't be this bad either. Even if you put stars together, it'll take a year or 2 to completely gel.

Yesterday was a good win though, Jays usually win those. Go beat up on San Francisco who are really really struggling (lost last 7 out of 11).

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

AA just wanted to hire a guy who wouldn't jump ship, so he hired a guy that pretty much can't get a job anywhere else.

I don't think it ever was a World Series team but it shouldn't be this bad either. Even if you put stars together, it'll take a year or 2 to completely gel.

Yesterday was a good win though, Jays usually win those. Go beat up on San Francisco who are really really struggling (lost last 7 out of 11).

Why do they need to "gel" though? Their isn't much chemistry outside of infield play, and it's impact on the win loss record is pretty minor overall. Pitching and hiring are highly individualistic

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Why do they need to "gel" though? Their isn't much chemistry outside of infield play, and it's impact on the win loss record is pretty minor overall. Pitching and hiring are highly individualistic

There are other factors. It's not that individualistic.

1. Defensive positioning.. maybe Rasmus goes to his left better than to his right so Melky has to cover more ground. Or as you said infield play with alignment combinations.

2. Batting, players talking to other players about their at bats against certain pitchers. Guy on deck may not even know the tendencies of his own new teammate hitting in front of him, for example Bautista studying Melky. Was that a good pitch or did Melky just swing badly? Did the pitcher throw a curve because his curve is his best pitch tonight or is Melky just misreading it.

3. Base running, who tends to gamble and who doesn't. New 3rd base coach, what does he like to do.

4. More batting, can players bunt, can they hit to the left or right side. When to hit and run, when to steal.

5. Battery, JP is catching 4 new pitchers (3 if you exclude Dickey). What are all those tendencies. Can JP call offspeed when the pitcher doesn't want throw offspeed.

If you break down baseball, like it is broken down at the MLB level, there are many small factors that lead to victory. Something the Jays haven't grasped yet.

When you watch the next Jays game, try to notice everything. For example, what is the count when the Jays make an out, what is the count when the Jays get a hit. Are 4 consecutive batters striking out on curveballs? Why aren't they telling each other that the pitcher is throwing curveballs in fastball counts (pitching backwards) etc....

[KelVarnsen]

If you replace Gibbons, you need to do it now. Don't wait for next season, like GS says it takes time for a manager/coaches to learn his/their players. Sure in the off season players change, but the core group is there so the transition is easier.

There are bright spots to the season, Lind at the dish, Rasmus at the dish and in the field, Cecil as a relief pitcher. The Jays need to find a way to use those positives and translate them for the rest of the team. While they were too hyped, they are a good team. They just need find it. Whatever it is.

[dustyanddaflames]

I think the Jays are really missing that guy who steps up and leads the club - for the longest time the Yankees were buying championship calibre rosters, but they always had Jeter/Rivera leading the charge. I think that is why the "buying" worked for so long in New York. You had two leaders in place all the time, and no matter who the new faces were, they knew their place regardless of statistics.

I don't think Toronto has that - Jose was supposed to be that guy, but I don't really get the feeling that he is that guy. Ya he stepped in when Lawrie/Gibbons were going at it, but I don't get the vibe that he is truly that leader you go to battle with. When your suposed leader isn't the guy leading out in the field, I think he loses a lot of clout. Jeter/Rivera have lead the Yankees for so long, and have always been their best players on championship runs. I don't think the Jays have that guy - I think if you could combine Baustista's bark with Encarnacion's production, you might have that guy.

I don't feel firing Gibbon's is going to change the fortune of this club - I think they Jay's have already used something crazy, like 15 more pitchers than the second highest in the MLB. Gibbon's I feel has done a great job at utilizing a bullpen, keeping Lind sheltered against LHP, even getting some decent production from Kawasaki while Reyes has been out. But you get to a point where the Band-Aids don't stick to one another anymore, and I think we are seeing that. The staff is in shambles, no doubt about it. Romero/Morrow/Johnson were supposed to be the strenght behind our Cy Young winner, and they have done next to nothing. As for Dickey, who knows what is going on with him, but something clearly isn't right.

Things are getting better, but it's not fast enough. The hole they dug in April needed some sort of miracle to happen, to get back into the race. The Jays' have had ample opportunities to take series' 3-1, and have failed way more often than not. There just isn't that finishing mentality that was needed to get the club back into contention, but that doesn't diminish the fact that they are slowly getting better. But I feel its too late - we needed a miracle and were left with reality.