If that's your opinion you're in the minority among Atheists. It also doesn't change my point of the most damaging parts of any religion is the direct result of religion being practiced by humanity. Remove humanity from religion, and you have a book of stories about love and salvation. However, remove religion from humanity, and you have the same greed/territorialism/hatred/envy/racism/deviancy that has existed since we were monkeys in trees throwing our crap at each other. I guess my main complaint is with anyone who wants to tie all our flaws as a species too religion. It's an ignorant cop-out.
I think she is likely the Majority of Athiest's .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Canada - It looks to me like there are quite a few people all around your right now that do not have a religious affiliation. If you come looking on the internet you are bound to find the most ardent Atheists and feel that vocal bunch is the majority. However you likely have a bunch of people at your work, etc. that are less vocal about it. In fact i think most Athiest's spend little to no time arguing about it.
If that's your opinion you're in the minority among Atheists. It also doesn't change my point of the most damaging parts of any religion is the direct result of religion being practiced by humanity. Remove humanity from religion, and you have a book of stories about love and salvation. However, remove religion from humanity, and you have the same greed/territorialism/hatred/envy/racism/deviancy that has existed since we were monkeys in trees throwing our crap at each other. I guess my main complaint is with anyone who wants to tie all our flaws as a species too religion. It's an ignorant cop-out.
This is a very narrow and selective view of religion, consistent with the cherry-picking we often see when Christianity is discussed.
Your argument is incoherent. We don't stone our brides if they aren't a virgin on their wedding nights, do we? Do you think religion put an end to that or humanity decided that was a sh*t thing to do? For every statement of love and acceptance found in the holy text, you can find another one condoning violence, rape, or other clearly identifiable abuses.
It's pretty neat how you started out railing on Minnie for being self-righteous, and then pulled something out of your ass and started railing on Atheists.
Did I say neat? I meant that other thing.
Stupid.
I don't think you know what self-righteous means, I'm not religious and claimed the main problem is Humanity. A group I fully admit to being a member of. I'm surprised I'd actually have to point that out. Also sorry to minnie for actually focusing on her, my point was more in response to other posters.
This is a very narrow and selective view of religion, consistent with the cherry-picking we often see when Christianity is discussed.
Your argument is incoherent. We don't stone our brides if they aren't a virgin on their wedding nights, do we? Do you think religion put an end to that or humanity decided that was a sh*t thing to do? For every statement of love and acceptance found in the holy text, you can find another one condoning violence, rape, or other clearly identifiable abuses.
Yeah, was basing that sentence much more on personal experience in the church when I was young. I was never taught the type of ignorance and hate some religious people might have been, but can't say it doesn't happen. As to my argument being incoherent, I honestly don't know what I need too clarify? My point is people have/are/will commit disgusting acts with or without religion. This view of some that all of humanities flaws can be attributed too organized religion and thus us Atheists are in some way evolved over non Atheists is a view I consider ignorant.
You said "Remove humanity from religion, and you have a book of stories about love and salvation. However, remove religion from humanity, and you have the same greed/territorialism/hatred/envy/racism/deviancy that has existed since we were monkeys in trees throwing our crap at each other." but this is quite clearly untrue, as I've already said. It was humanity, not religion, that has caused the shift away from the barbarism that we read about in the Bible. You claimed right there that the religious book is full of stories of love and salvation, which - to anyone who's read the Bible *cough* me - is not possible unless you resort to cherry-picking verses.
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
If I said to someone "I want you to oppress these people over here", they'd probably tell me to go pound sand. But if they genuinely believe the creator of the universe will let them into heaven if they do what I'm telling them to do, because it coincides with their holy text and what their church teaches, the resistance would be far, far less. And when those people do leave the faith - if they leave the faith - they realize how horrible their behavior has been. Go read up on some of the people who have defected from the Westboro Baptist Church as an example. It's an extreme, certainly, but it pretty clearly demonstrates the impact religion can have on people. Look at fundamentalist Islam for another example.
Religion obviously can have an effect on the actions of people, I've never said otherwise. I already also pointed out that the part of my post you just quoted was based on personal experience, was read the bible as well. Religion is an excellent tool too promote violence if that is what someone intends, and people who might inherently be non violent can be incited into violence based on a religious belief. However, the implication that the removal of religion from humanity would also remove our natural violent tendencies is ignorant. Look at most of the wars fought over the last century, the desire for new territory, the desire to kill those different from you, the desire for resources have been just as responsible as spirituals beliefs for the violence. People will always find a reason to kill other people.
I already also pointed out that the part of my post you just quoted was based on personal experience, was read the bible as well.
How exactly can you make such a statement, and then claim it was 'based on personal experience'? You've noticed I highlighted two different sentences that time? Sorry, that looks like an awkward cop-out and trying to assert what you did then falling back on 'personal experience' makes it a worthless statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignite09
Religion is an excellent tool too promote violence if that is what someone intends, and people who might inherently be non violent can be incited into violence based on a religious belief.
Right, and it is by rejecting these ideas that we avoid bringing harm to other people because we think it'll earn up brownie points in the after-life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignite09
However, the implication that the removal of religion from humanity would also remove our natural violent tendencies is ignorant.
Good thing I've never claimed this. What I have said is that the barbarism that was, for centuries, promoted and conducted in the name of religion has been reduced substantially, and it is not the religion itself that is responsible for this. Removing religion from humanity would remove the religiously-motivated violence/discrimination/abuse from humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignite09
Look at most of the wars fought over the last century, the desire for new territory, the desire to kill those different from you, the desire for resources have been just as responsible as spirituals beliefs for the violence. People will always find a reason to kill other people.
Yeah, and there's even more examples of religiously-motivated violence. Ask the Sunni and Shia Muslims in Iraq how fond they are of each other, you don't think that's religiously motivated? That crap is going on DAILY. The fact that people find a way to have violent conflict without religion does not excuse religion for the same.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
Typical dumb take.
Last edited by TorqueDog; 05-29-2013 at 04:10 PM.
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Already said twice that statement was poorly worded, and fully agree that the bible has wording in it that directly supports anti-gay opinion, and the poor treatment of women. What else do you need, a personal apology? I also never accused you of saying that religion and violence are directly related, but the fact you were offended by that and then went on to pretty much say it is amusing. Look back at our posts, you reacted to my opinion not the other way around.
If you want to have some blind faith in the removal of religion will directly result in the removal of violence/hatred/racism from this world go ahead. If that's not your opinion then don't worry about it as this then wouldn't be directed at you.
Already said twice that statement was poorly worded, and fully agree that the bible has wording in it that directly supports anti-gay opinion, and the poor treatment of women. What else do you need, a personal apology?
Feel free to show me where exactly you said it was 'poorly worded' and didn't just hide behind 'personal experience'. Otherwise I'll take my apology typed in bold-face Garamond, forum text size 5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignite09
I also never accused you of saying that religion and violence are directly related, but the fact you were offended by that and then went on to pretty much say it is amusing.
If by "pretty much say it" you mean "say something that had a completely different meaning than what I [meaning you] was implying", sure. You were responding directly to me, so I could only assume you failed to understand at a basic level what my post was saying. Otherwise you might have communicated your point more clearly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignite09
Look back at our posts, you reacted to my opinion not the other way around.
Ah yes, you've learned the dynamic of a message board. It's not like praying, the people on the other side actually exist, see what you say and *gasp* respond!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignite09
If you want to have some blind faith in the removal of religion will directly result in the removal of violence/hatred/racism from this world go ahead. If that's not your opinion then don't worry about it as this then wouldn't be directed at you.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignite09
Also never excused violence within religion, I actually haven't seen a single poster do so.
I also never accused you of excusing violence within religion, but the fact that you were offended by tha-... see what I did there?
All right Torquedog I concede, you win the internet. You are definitely willing to put way more effort into this than I am. However, my main point since my initial post still stands. Violence can't just be explained away as a religious problem, and I think it's a foolish point of view. And that's not directed at any one poster, but I have yet too see anyone show evidence suggesting otherwise.
I understand fine. I studied religion in university and even have a minor in the subject...
I'm at work and only got to page three before needing to head off to a meeting. I will post later, but just had to get this in...
On behalf of all my colleagues who teach religious studies at a post-secondary level, I am embarrassed for this:
It absolutely boggles the mind how you managed to earn a university-level minor in religious studies, and missed this rather emphatic point with regards to the Christian religion... Mind... Boggling...
Did you go to clown college?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Religion obviously can have an effect on the actions of people, I've never said otherwise. I already also pointed out that the part of my post you just quoted was based on personal experience, was read the bible as well. Religion is an excellent tool too promote violence if that is what someone intends, and people who might inherently be non violent can be incited into violence based on a religious belief. However, the implication that the removal of religion from humanity would also remove our natural violent tendencies is ignorant. Look at most of the wars fought over the last century, the desire for new territory, the desire to kill those different from you, the desire for resources have been just as responsible as spirituals beliefs for the violence. People will always find a reason to kill other people.
I agree with what you're saying here. But at least without religion you can deal with these other motivators rationally. You can avoid violence if you can talk to the other party rationally, but a religious basis for violence affords no rationality, which complicates things. Its like trying to reason with an agitated schizophrenic: if they have some crazy reason for punching you, you're getting punched no matter what you say.
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I agree with what you're saying here. But at least without religion you can deal with these other motivators rationally. You can avoid violence if you can talk to the other party rationally, but a religious basis for violence affords no rationality, which complicates things. Its like trying to reason with an agitated schizophrenic: if they have some crazy reason for punching you, you're getting punched no matter what you say.
I agree with this, but I think the loss of religion would have more negative impact than good on society. I am very much against organized religion and do not believe in god but I do believe spirituality has a very important place in our society. I think those folks who are unable to believe in themselves need to believe in something else that they believe is bigger than them. Without that millions of people would be stripped of the hope they have in life.
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I agree with this, but I think the loss of religion would have more negative impact than good on society. I am very much against organized religion and do not believe in god but I do believe spirituality has a very important place in our society. I think those folks who are unable to believe in themselves need to believe in something else that they believe is bigger than them. Without that millions of people would be stripped of the hope they have in life.
I think we could ditch religion, but spirituality is another thing; something inherent in human beings that no doubt has some value. I think its healthy for people to explore spirituality, but much less so when some people impose their views of spirituality on others. Spirituality can come in many forms by many means, even for the atheists of the world: it's up to each of us to find our best means of connecting to things greater than ourselves.
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No, actually. Getbak is right about the fish symbol, its primacy and antiquity. The very earliest depictions of the Star of David do not appear until the late-middle ages, while the ιχθυς was clearly used by Christians before the fourth century.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
If that's your opinion you're in the minority among Atheists.
Well that is dead wrong, the vast majority of atheists and agnostics worldwide are not only quiet about it, many of them are in danger or face all kinds or problems since atheism is still a taboo in much of the world if they speak up. So you couldn't be more wrong about such a broad assumption.
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I guess my main complaint is with anyone who wants to tie all our flaws as a species too religion. It's an ignorant cop-out.
I don't see this in the many debates, discussions I see about religion. The truth is represented by this excellent quote:
Quote:
With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg
I agree with what you're saying here. But at least without religion you can deal with these other motivators rationally. You can avoid violence if you can talk to the other party rationally, but a religious basis for violence affords no rationality, which complicates things. Its like trying to reason with an agitated schizophrenic: if they have some crazy reason for punching you, you're getting punched no matter what you say.
That makes little sense to me. Simply getting rid of religion would not make people rational. The problem lies more in having value systems that don't have enough in common, as values and emotions do what rationality can't - motivate actions.
Besides religion there are all sorts of different non-rational, non-religious belief systems for people to be raised into or follow anyways. Without having enough in common between values and world views rationality isn't going to have any power to win people over.
Seems to me that when it comes to conflicts that come out of serious, values-based differences which can't be factually disputed the only solution besides avoidance of each other is for one side to overwhelm and replace or marginalize the other.
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I don't see this in the many debates, discussions I see about religion. The truth is represented by this excellent quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor
With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg
That quote seems obviously wrong to me. People will do bad things regardless of religion. Milgram's experiments and the Stanford prison experiment are excellent examples of how easy it is for "good" people to do "evil" things.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
