Buying a new car

[Sliver]

It's unrealistic to expect them to mount the same tires on all cars in their comparisons, though. They are testing new cars as you'd buy them from the manufacturer.

I hear what you're saying, though. It would likely change the results of every comparison they've ever done.

[burn_this_city]

Bike magazines usually do it, so you actually compare the vehicle, not the tires. Anyone can throw a set of Eagle F1s on a car and make it handle well. Doesn't matter though, the new MK7 will reclaim the crown when it hits our shores next year.

[-TC-]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Lol. Okay read Car & Driver yourself. I'll post the article tomorrow, but the Ford Focus ST just beat the VW GTI in their latest comparison either this month or last. That's the same GTI you just recommended as you told us to read C&D. Are you starting to see why everyone is laughing at you for not knowing what you're talking about?

Ah, there's the difference. I actually drive the cars...you just read about them.

Now I understand, sorry. I thought this was an informed discussion amongst equals.

My bad.

I'll leave you to it.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Ah, there's the difference. I actually drive the cars...you just read about them.

Now I understand, sorry. I thought this was an informed discussion amongst equals.

My bad.

I'll leave you to it.

Holy crap you're being an ass.

[-TC-]

Originally Posted by Minnie

You're funny.

And I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night...

That's called context, grown ups use it quite a bit.


Btw, hate holiday inn....wouldn't buy one of those either.

[Minnie]

Ok Est.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Ah, there's the difference. I actually drive the cars...you just read about them.

So let me get this straight...

If you...
a) drive a Lexus;
b) up until then, owned nothing but Hondas and a VW from the late 70s;
c) rent cars regularly; and
d) race go karts;

... you're instantly an expert and more credible than everyone else in the thread?

Seriously, while you're at it, please give us your first-hand experience in how the cars you're talking about do in crash-test ratings, because your head is so far up your own ass that I have to imagine you must've crashed at least some of them.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Ah, there's the difference. I actually drive the cars...you just read about them.

Now I understand, sorry. I thought this was an informed discussion amongst equals.

My bad.

I'll leave you to it.

Hey Einstein, you're the one that said Car & Driver prefers German cars over Fords. I proved you wrong. I didn't say anything about my own history of owning and driving vehicles.

[Table 5]

TC, are you sure you don't drive a BMW?

[TorqueDog]

Hey, bite your tongue.

<-- Drives a BMW.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Ah, there's the difference. I actually drive the cars...you just read about them.

Now I understand, sorry. I thought this was an informed discussion amongst equals.

My bad.

I'll leave you to it.

If you really want to play this game we can. I have driven everything right from $9995 Hyundai's all the way up to $250k Ferraris. I am in the car business. My current rides are a 2008 BMW 135i and a 2013 VW Tiguan. And I have owned 25 + cars in the last 12 years including 8 GTI's. Your snobbery, is silly. I know my cars, and drive more different cars in a month, than most will drive in a lifetime.

I LOVE German cars. But they suck when it comes to maintenance, simplicity, and reliability. Weird for the sake of being weird. You buy a German car knowing it is going to cost you more to keep going than anything else. You have to accept it, and budget for it... or you will sorely disappointed in the ownership experience when you find out a basic service is $300-$500 at a dealer. I am willing to pay that for the luxury of a German car, many... are not.

Every year, when the car show rolls around, I have this dirty little secret. I sneak in with my week pass I get every year, off shift, and skulk around plain clothes checking out the competition pretending I am a dumb, uninformed customer. The first stop I make is always Hyundai. The progress they have made in even the last decade with quality is dumbfounding. I secretly root for them to dethrone Toyota and Honda, and mark my words, it is going to happen. Many inside the industry think it already has, and believe Hyundai is delivering a superior product. They are making some cars that were Lexus calibre 5 years ago, at half the cost. I give them 5 more, and they will be right there.

Every manufacturer is making fantastic cars right now. The market is so competitive, and the products being put out by every single manufacturer is so far beyond what we had even 15 years ago, it is ignorant to point a finger at any of them anymore and say "Such and such makes crappy cars." The worst cars today, would be world beaters 15 years ago. I remember what a big frikkin whoop it was, when the Lotus Esprit passed the 100 HP/Litre barrier. It was a benchmark of what was capable. Now if you aren't there + getting 30 + MPG you aren't even in the game. You can buy 400+ HP cars now with sub 5 second 0-60 times for under 50K. That used to be $300,000 super car territory. Now, it is a Dodge Challenger with a $5000 dealer rebate, 0 percent financing and a date with the receptionist.

We are living in a remarkable era of cars.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by pylon

The first stop I make is always Hyundai. The progress they have made in even the last decade with quality is dumbfounding. I secretly root for them to dethrone Toyota and Honda, and mark my words, it is going to happen. Many inside the industry think it already has, and believe Hyundai is delivering a superior product. They are making some cars that were Lexus calibre 5 years ago, at half the cost.

Uh, just no. Hyundai may be building cars that are impressive on the showroom floor and to the untrained eye. But they make nothing like Lexus does as far as the total package. Refinement, build quality, reliability, longevity. It's not there, and won't be anytime soon, if ever.

I realize you have an unhealthy hatred towards Toyota, but they wrote the book on modern manufacturing (well, really they were just about the only company to read the book and embrace it) and even given their challenges the last decade they are still one of the best in just about every metric there is. Lexus is a at another level altogether, and have consistently lead the industry since they became a brand.

For all the bluster about the likes of Ford and Hyundai, both rate about the industry average for quality and reliability. If you keep a car for 4-5 years, it doesn't matter so much. But keep a car for a decade or more, and you truly find out how good it is.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by zamler

Uh, just no. Hyundai may be building cars that are impressive on the showroom floor and to the untrained eye. But they make nothing like Lexus does as far as the total package. Refinement, build quality, reliability, longevity. It's not there, and won't be anytime soon, if ever.

I realize you have an unhealthy hatred towards Toyota, but they wrote the book on modern manufacturing (well, really they were just about the only company to read the book and embrace it) and even given their challenges the last decade they are still one of the best in just about every metric there is. Lexus is a at another level altogether, and have consistently lead the industry since they became a brand.

For all the bluster about the likes of Ford and Hyundai, both rate about the industry average for quality and reliability. If you keep a car for 4-5 years, it doesn't matter so much. But keep a car for a decade or more, and you truly find out how good it is.

1: Go take a close, a real close look at a Genesis Sedan or Equus before you make that statement. The new Elantra for gods sake. What a beautifully put together, and appointed car in that segment. And you can look at any review or rating you want, that car is running neck and neck with all the big hitters in that segment. And the experts absolutely agree. Toyota and Honda are good cars, but they are running off of past reputation, and nowhere near what they once were in terms of product superiority.

2: I have absolutely nothing against Toyota. They build good Maytag Cars. Reliable, dependable, appliances to get around in that have zero passion and mediocre at best performance. They are good at getting you around, and not letting you down. The best analogy I ever heard for Toyota came from a guy who is pretty high up in the Toyota world. "Toyota's are for people who hate driving and hate cars." They are not my bag, but not everyone wants a performance car, and I get that. Just like Peter12 would dump $3000 on a Bespoke suit, I feel like I am paying too much buying a $300 Boulevard club suit at Sears. We all have our priorities. And I want my cars to haul ass, and look awesome doing it.

Toyota 20 years ago however, with the MR2, Supra, Celica, and Japanese production.... that Toyota was AWESOME. However, go take a good close look at a Camry, next to anything, and that car is an utter embarrassment compared to what they used to build. It is so cheaply put together, and so poorly finished it is kinda sad in a way Toyota tarnished their legacy so much. Bare wires in the trunk and under the hood. No shrouding on the seat frames. Radios that sound like they should have a 'Electrohome' label on them, interiors that look like they were produced in a Tupperware factory..... the list goes on. I have been in comparison panels where they have 1 of everything from a category. A Camry, Passat, Accord, Mazda 6, Legacy, Altima, etc.... and every single time the car that is rated at the bottom is Toyota. Not because they are necessarily 'bad' cars. But because they are so frikking boring, plain and uninspired, and these things are usually attended by enthusiasts. I always laugh my ass of, at how you can without fail, every single time, get in a Toyota anything, and make the power steering pump fail on an autocross course if you know how to really push a car. That and basically destroy the brakes by the end of a single day.

They are good cars.... just not if you enjoy performance.

[undercoverbrother]

We (my wife) have owned two Hyundai's. in the past 10 yrs. Not one $ beyond regular maintenance has been spent on either, to me that is hard to argue.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Hey, bite your tongue.

<-- Drives a BMW.

Oh I'm aware.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by pylon

1: Go take a close, a real close look at a Genesis Sedan or Equus before you make that statement.

I recently looked at the 2013 Accord V6. A nice car indeed but hardly justify the $35K price tag and with tax, destination charge and some add ons, it's close to almost $40K, ouche! The Accord is a new model so dealers won't budge on price.

Then I checked out a slightly used R spec Genesis and there's no looking back. Over 400 ponies, V8 and all the luxuries only the Bimmers can top for basically the same price as a new Accord V6. Granted the Genesis R spec is used but still..

The only thing is that I'm not sure if I want to put up wiht the fuel consumption of the Genesis V8 as an everyday commuter vehicle.

The products of Honda and Toyota in the 80s had no match but not anymore in this day and age.

[TorqueDog]

I agree with pretty well everything you just posted, but...

Originally Posted by darklord700

The products of Honda and Toyota in the 80s had no match but not anymore in this day and age.

... eh? Back in the 80s, Honda and Toyota powertrains/drivetrains were just fine, interiors were nothing to write home about, but the bodywork on those damn things used to deteriorate like nothing else.

You're thinking 90s/early-2000s.

[manwiches]

Originally Posted by pylon

1: Go take a close, a real close look at a Genesis Sedan or Equus before you make that statement. The new Elantra for gods sake. What a beautifully put together, and appointed car in that segment. And you can look at any review or rating you want, that car is running neck and neck with all the big hitters in that segment. And the experts absolutely agree. Toyota and Honda are good cars, but they are running off of past reputation, and nowhere near what they once were in terms of product superiority.

2: I have absolutely nothing against Toyota. They build good Maytag Cars. Reliable, dependable, appliances to get around in that have zero passion and mediocre at best performance. They are good at getting you around, and not letting you down. The best analogy I ever heard for Toyota came from a guy who is pretty high up in the Toyota world. "Toyota's are for people who hate driving and hate cars." They are not my bag, but not everyone wants a performance car, and I get that. Just like Peter12 would dump $3000 on a Bespoke suit, I feel like I am paying too much buying a $300 Boulevard club suit at Sears. We all have our priorities. And I want my cars to haul ass, and look awesome doing it.

Toyota 20 years ago however, with the MR2, Supra, Celica, and Japanese production.... that Toyota was AWESOME. However, go take a good close look at a Camry, next to anything, and that car is an utter embarrassment compared to what they used to build. It is so cheaply put together, and so poorly finished it is kinda sad in a way Toyota tarnished their legacy so much. Bare wires in the trunk and under the hood. No shrouding on the seat frames. Radios that sound like they should have a 'Electrohome' label on them, interiors that look like they were produced in a Tupperware factory..... the list goes on. I have been in comparison panels where they have 1 of everything from a category. A Camry, Passat, Accord, Mazda 6, Legacy, Altima, etc.... and every single time the car that is rated at the bottom is Toyota. Not because they are necessarily 'bad' cars. But because they are so frikking boring, plain and uninspired, and these things are usually attended by enthusiasts. I always laugh my ass of, at how you can without fail, every single time, get in a Toyota anything, and make the power steering pump fail on an autocross course if you know how to really push a car. That and basically destroy the brakes by the end of a single day.

They are good cars.... just not if you enjoy performance.

I don't think you and I have seen eye to eye alot in these forums, but for once, I completely agree with you. Thank you.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by pylon

I always laugh my ass of, at how you can without fail, every single time, get in a Toyota anything, and make the power steering pump fail on an autocross course if you know how to really push a car.

Holy crap, does that STILL happen? I remember doing that once at a Ride and Drive event back in 2005.

Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, and the Toyota Camry. Camry's power steering would cut out in the middle of the slalom and you'd damn near plow into the cones.

Full disclosure: While I was still getting my experience in the IT world part-time, I worked in the auto industry.

[Violator]

I owned an 06 Ford Fusion before i bought my truck it had 128,000 kilometers on it and cause it was so reliable I bought the F150.I know the 06 was good for me.