Our 6th Overall Pick: Elias Lindholm or Sean Monahan?

[nik-]

Ugh ... stupid Carolina is ####ing up this whole thing. You couldn't hold a lead for three more minutes you losers?!

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

Which is funny, because that's EXACTLY what you did... except you didn't even use said blurb to form a sound, sane opinion.

Looking at PIM and drawing a concrete conclusion like you did is ridiculous.

Several people have pointed that out and you've gone off with posts full of broken sentences like a computer program trying to comprehend a code that doesn't compute.

PIM is a fact.... just like Goals scored is a fact . Grittiness and strength on the puck and skating styles are opinions that are subject to individual bias and interpretation.


The fact that Lindholm had 2 PIM while playing over 15 minutes a game in 48 games does not substantiate the assertion that he plays a gritty game and goes into the hard areas.

Try to find one comparable.

I will attempt to provide a comparable of a similar sized player with play making ability... (Lindholm at all levels has significant more assists than goals) and he plays on the wing.


I understand that you might be upset that I am saying that Lindholm is a playmaker as that is simply my interpretation of the Stats/facts.

One of the softest Flames is Tanquay... He is strong on the puck . Even he gets 20-50 PIM a season.

Will Lindholm be a Tanguay replacement?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Did you actually read that article, or just browse it until you found a blurb that matched your inner dialogue? Here's some quotes from that article:
.

Did you actually read that article, or just browse it until you found a blurb that matched your inner dialogue?

Lastly, here's an rather eyebrow raising quote from NHL Director of European Scouting, Goran Stubb in this NHL.com article:

"Lindholm played for a struggling team [in Brynas] and didn't play as well as expected," Stubb said. "It was tough for a young player to carry the struggling ex-champions, but he's still a guy with a lot of high-end talent. He's got all the tools needed to become really good."

Seems like the scout was saying that he had some difficulty stepping up to play against Swedish men...

[StrykerSteve]

Are we honestly arguing whether or not PIMs and playing hard are linked? You can be hard to play against and still be playing within the rules, PIMs are more directly linked to low hockey IQ, IMO. The lower your IQ, the more likely you are to take a penalty to try and keep up.

[ricardodw]

No one has responded to my simple question.

Fillip Forsberg is not quite 4 months older than Lindholm.

He played in the SEL last year 15 goals 33 pts in 38 games

He was the 11th overall pick in the "weak" 2012 draft

Lindholm 11 goals 30 pts in 48 games does not seem to match up favourably with Forsberg.


Why would he be 5-6 draft positions better than Forsberg ?

What intangibles would be making Lindholm a more sought after player than Forsberg?

[StrykerSteve]

I haven't watched one minute of Lidholm playing live, so I'm in no position to comment on his intangibles.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

PIM is a fact.... just like Goals scored is a fact . Grittiness and strength on the puck and skating styles are opinions that are subject to individual bias and interpretation.


The fact that Lindholm had 2 PIM while playing over 15 minutes a game in 48 games does not substantiate the assertion that he plays a gritty game and goes into the hard areas.

Try to find one comparable.

I will attempt to provide a comparable of a similar sized player with play making ability... (Lindholm at all levels has significant more assists than goals) and he plays on the wing.


I understand that you might be upset that I am saying that Lindholm is a playmaker as that is simply my interpretation of the Stats/facts.

One of the softest Flames is Tanquay... He is strong on the puck . Even he gets 20-50 PIM a season.

Will Lindholm be a Tanguay replacement?

Drop the PIM argument already, you're the only one who thinks it isn't completely ######ed.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

No one has responded to my simple question.

Fillip Forsberg is not quite 4 months older than Lindholm.

He played in the SEL last year 15 goals 33 pts in 38 games

He was the 11th overall pick in the "weak" 2012 draft

Lindholm 11 goals 30 pts in 48 games does not seem to match up favourably with Forsberg.


Why would he be 5-6 draft positions better than Forsberg ?

What intangibles would be making Lindholm a more sought after player than Forsberg?

Forsberg did NOT play in the SEL last year. He played in Hockeyallsvenskan league, which is the second highest league in Sweden after Elitserien (SEL). Next year that team will play in the SEL, but they didn't this year.

Forsberg's numbers simply are not as impressive as Lindholm's. Lindholm is one of the best draft eligible Swedish players we've since since the 04/05 lockout. We would be lucky to pick him.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

No one has responded to my simple question.

Fillip Forsberg is not quite 4 months older than Lindholm.

He played in the SEL last year 15 goals 33 pts in 38 games

He was the 11th overall pick in the "weak" 2012 draft

Lindholm 11 goals 30 pts in 48 games does not seem to match up favourably with Forsberg.


Why would he be 5-6 draft positions better than Forsberg ?

What intangibles would be making Lindholm a more sought after player than Forsberg?

If i remember correctly Forsberg did not rate well in his own zone play and for grit.

Have to admit i go back and forth daily on Lindholm and Monahan. Both players would be a welcome addition to the flames.

The reason that i prefer Monahan a bit more is my dream that he and Jankowski work out. Imagine having 2, 6'2"-6'3" centers in the top 6. That could win a playoff round alone if they are both legit top 6 . Add Sven and Johnny Hockey running around the 2 big guys, could be a treat to watch.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Are we honestly arguing whether or not PIMs and playing hard are linked? You can be hard to play against and still be playing within the rules, PIMs are more directly linked to low hockey IQ, IMO. The lower your IQ, the more likely you are to take a penalty to try and keep up.

Yep the fact that Gio leads the Flames d-men in PIM is simply that he has a low hockey IQ.

Backlund lost his high Hockey IQ as he doubled his PIM in his break through year?

There is a direct correlation between Backlund playing harder and better and his PIM going up.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Did you actually read that article, or just browse it until you found a blurb that matched your inner dialogue?




Seems like the scout was saying that he had some difficulty stepping up to play against Swedish men...

This isn't surprising as a 17 year old playing against bigger/stronger players. Jankowski had similar struggles this season jumping into the NCAA (and was similarly moved to the wing to aid his adjustment.) Thats one of the reasons Lindholm is rated below Barkov and Nichushkin. He will likely need to get bigger to be successful in the NHL.

As far as Lindholm vs Monahan I think the differences are marginal at best. Monahan is a bit bigger and possibly more NHL ready. Lindholm looks to be a slightly better skater. Both are said to be good two-way players with high hockey IQ. Personally I would be happy with either one.

I just think it's ridiculous that you feel the need to paint Lindholm as a prototypical soft-euro player to better your argument for Monahan when all evidence is to the contrary.

[Street Pharmacist]

Nick Lidstrom just didn't play very hard

[cannon7]

Considering how happy the Canes apparently are with Semin, I wouldn't be surprised to see them take a Russian

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Yep the fact that Gio leads the Flames d-men in PIM is simply that he has a low hockey IQ.

Backlund lost his high Hockey IQ as he doubled his PIM in his break through year?

There is a direct correlation between Backlund playing harder and better and his PIM going up.

from a purely statistical point of view, its almost impossible to state that two variables directly correlate or affect one another exclusively

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

No one has responded to my simple question.

Fillip Forsberg is not quite 4 months older than Lindholm.

He played in the SEL last year 15 goals 33 pts in 38 games

He was the 11th overall pick in the "weak" 2012 draft

Lindholm 11 goals 30 pts in 48 games does not seem to match up favourably with Forsberg.


Why would he be 5-6 draft positions better than Forsberg ?

What intangibles would be making Lindholm a more sought after player than Forsberg?

Wrong again.

Filip Forsberg had 15 goals and 33 points for Leksand in the Allsvenskan (SWE-1) this year. During his draft season he had 8 goals, and 17 points in 43 games which again came in the Allsvenskan.

Elias Lindholm nearly doubled Forsberg's production in their respective drafts years playing in a tougher league. Not comparable in any sense. Lindholm wins in a landslide.

Even then Filip Forsberg was still projected as a top five pick last season and dropped because some scouts believe he lacks hockey sense, which ironically is something Elias Lindholm is said to have in spades.

I will yet again mention that Elias Lindholm ranked in the top 30 in hits in the SEL this season, and first among Junior players by a significant margin. He is more than willing to throw his weight around and has no issues playing in traffic areas on the ice.

[The Fonz]

But how many PIMs did he have?

[Hockey_Ninja]

I can't wait to see ricardodw flip out once Feaster announces Lindholm's name. Please let it happen.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

I can't wait to see ricardodw flip out once Feaster announces Lindholm's name. Please let it happen.

Not that I side with Ricardo or any such thing, but it appears a great chunk of voters on the Flames website seem to prefer Monahan as well. Now, I can speculate that majority of the voters don't know enough about the rest of the candidates but Monahan is dominating the Flames' poll.

With the 6th overall pick, which of these draft prospects would you like to see Flames select?

Sean Monahan:
46.88%
Elias Lindholm:
15.48%
Valeri Nichushkin:
13.12%
Darnell Nurse:
5.81%
Nikita Zadorov:
6.88%
Hunter Shinkaruk:
11.83%

I still rank my preferences this way:
Barkov
Lindholm
Nichushkin
Monahan

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Not that I side with Ricardo or any such thing, but it appears a great chunk of voters on the Flames website seem to prefer Monahan as well. Now, I can speculate that majority of the voters don't know enough about the rest of the candidates but Monahan is dominating the Flames' poll.

[snip]

I still rank my preferences this way:
Barkov
Lindholm
Nichushkin
Monahan

Yikes. Are you sure that's a good idea. Calgary has a very very weak history with Russians. I think Makarov only came over because the Flames won the Cup the previous year. Other than that, the Flames history with Russians is extremely shallow meaning I don't think a Russian (let alone one making huge money in the KHL) will want to come over to play for the Flames.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

Yikes. Are you sure that's a good idea. Calgary has a very very weak history with Russians. I think Makarov only came over because the Flames won the Cup the previous year. Other than that, the Flames history with Russians is extremely shallow meaning I don't think a Russian (let alone one making huge money in the KHL) will want to come over to play for the Flames.

I don't buy the whole Russian factor as whole heartedly as some others. Yes it does exist but his skill is too good to shy away from. He has already said he wants to play in the NHL and I believe him. Again as has been discussed a thousand time over on CP already, it will certainly boil down to the interview process. If he say he's not entirely sold on Calgary you obviously pass.