EQF (1) Pittsburgh Penguins vs (8) New York Islanders (Penguins win 4-2).

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I've said it before, if he's playing in 1985, he's scoring 100 goals and 250 points.

I'm sorry, but that's just leotarded. He's putting up almost 20% more points than then the greatest hockey player of all time in his best season?

Put Crosby in the 80s...and sure he's putting up some great points. But he's probably in about half of the shape he's in, chances are he's probably smoking, and his concussions probably would've been completely misdiagnosed or ignored, so everyone would be wondering why he looks so lazy out there.

I think Crosby is a generational talent, but no way is he above the generational talent before him. Personally I've still yet to see him come close to what Lemieux could do in his prime. That man came back from frickin cancer and scored at a 2.67 points a game clip for the rest of the season! And this was in the 90s.

Talent is talent. It doesn't just get "better" with every decade. What changes is training and professionalism. I bet you the most talented athlete from the 1800's could play in the NHL if he was magically born today and went through the intense training regimen that kids go through. And in the off season he'd go out and build you a railroad.

[Bertuzzied]

Islanders are going to use the power of Butch Goring's beard and smoke the Pens the final 2 games. Vogoon's performance was just a blip.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by bossy22

You can't compare generations. They're so different. Put Kipper in those small pads, and goalie equipment, his style no longer works. Move Lemieux or Orr to today. Better conditioning for Mario, successful knee surgery for Orr, what could they have done? Give Mike Bossy a composite hockey stick, what could he do? Or Bobby Hull for that matter. He had a 100 + mph slap shot with a 2x4. It's apples to oranges.
Sure, you put Crosby back then, and he'd dominate, but give him the 80's training, and equipment, and the rules, he'd still be one of the best, but he wouldn't be head and shoulders above Mario.

The difference to me isn't really the superstars - Crosby, Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr - but rather the plugs. Training, diet, etc has helped even fourth line guys become pretty incredible athletes. That narrows the gap immensely and means that utter domination is way more difficult in this day.

I do actually think Crosby is almost as good as Gretzky and Lemieux, and that he was getting right up there during the season where he was first concussed during the winter classic, with his ~2p/game pace and the amount by which he was outscoring the rest of the league. I think he may get back to that.

Regardless, he's the best player in the game right now by a large margin, and when his career is all said and done, he will probably have been the best player for more than ten years. That's pretty incredible and on par with the greatest of all time.

[dustygoon]

Pens have a long term goalie issue. Fleury has to be done. He was a sieve last playoffs too. $5m cap hit for two more years.

http://penguins.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8470594

[NBC]

Have people forgotten the clutch and grab style of play that was predominant during the 70s and 80s? You could hook guys all they way down the ice and if they stayed upright you never got called. Hooking, interference, holding, you never had clutching (holding) the stick penalties called. And we all know how much Crosby likes playing in those conditions.

They game has completely changed from the way it is called to conditioning to equipment. I don't think that this is an easy comparison to make.

[NBC]

nm

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Crosby is good but he's not even on the same planet of Lemieux and Gretzky and I've seen the entire career pro careers of all three players. I didn't see Orr in his prime but I expect a case can be made that he was also more dominating in his time than Crosby. Crosby is a great player but I have yet to see any player dominate the game like Lemieux or Gretzky. They were on another level and Crosby is close but not there and I doubt he will ever get there.

I completely agree with this. Gretzky and Lemieux were on a different level than Crosby.

And yes, Orr was also more dominant. IMO, Orr is above Lemieux, but it is those 3, regardless of how you want to rank them. Then, IMO, Howe and then Crosby.

Saying that if you dropped Crosby into the 80s he would dominate is just silly. Yes he is faster and in better shape, but that is a product of the times - in the 80s he too would have had no dietitions, no personal trainers, heavier equipment and skates, etc.

Yes, Crosby works incredibly hard, but for those of you who can't remember, or weren't there, so did Gretzky - and so did all the greatest players. The hard work you see from Crosby is exactly the one ingredient that separates the greats from the really talented like Kovalev and countless others.

To say that he would dominate a different era because of his hard work, simply misses the mark, IMO.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by bossy22

You can't compare generations. They're so different. Put Kipper in those small pads, and goalie equipment, his style no longer works. Move Lemieux or Orr to today. Better conditioning for Mario, successful knee surgery for Orr, what could they have done? Give Mike Bossy a composite hockey stick, what could he do? Or Bobby Hull for that matter. He had a 100 + mph slap shot with a 2x4. It's apples to oranges.
Sure, you put Crosby back then, and he'd dominate, but give him the 80's training, and equipment, and the rules, he'd still be one of the best, but he wouldn't be head and shoulders above Mario.

Which is why you have to compare players against their peers.

[jhunt223]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Which is why you have to compare players against their peers.

Which is also why people should cut out this "Gretzky is the greatest ever, then Lemieux, then blah blah" bs. Who honestly knows how well they would stack up against Crosby. Crosby may very well be the best player ever. He certainly is by far the best player of this generation.

[Flamenspiel]

^^Even Gretz has been quoted as saying Lemiuex was the best. Lemieux is a freak of nature, a man who could do all the skilled things that smaller players do but was 6 foot 4 inches tall. His reach and strength were incomparable and he required no protection. either from the refs or teammates.

The play for me that shows Lemieux's career in microcosm was when he made Ray Bourke look like an AHL player in the 1992 playoffs. He is the kind of human being that explains the evolution of a species, a great leap forward in genetics. His statistics were self evident and others can show that, but in watching him play, when he got on the ice it was if the ice began to tip and the play went one way only.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by jhunt223

Which is also why people should cut out this "Gretzky is the greatest ever, then Lemieux, then blah blah" bs. Who honestly knows how well they would stack up against Crosby. Crosby may very well be the best player ever. He certainly is by far the best player of this generation.

Comparing players to their peers means that Gretzky and Orr are unquestionably the best players ever.

[Table 5]

I started following hockey in 89, so admittedly I never saw Orr play or Gretzky in his prime 80's years, but Ive never seen anyone able to just completely dominate a game quite like Lemieux. He clearly didn't last as long, but at his peak, I have never seen anyone come close...Gretzky, Crosby, Jagr, Ovechkin etc.

Frankly, the only player who reminds me of him and his ability to just take over an entire game by himself, is Michael Jordan.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

^^Even Gretz has been quoted as saying Lemiuex was the best. Lemieux is a freak of nature, a man who could do all the skilled things that smaller players do but was 6 foot 4 inches tall. His reach and strength were incomparable and he required no protection. either from the refs or teammates.

The play for me that shows Lemieux's career in microcosm was when he made Ray Bourke look like an AHL player in the 1992 playoffs. He is the kind of human being that explains the evolution of a species, a great leap forward in genetics. His statistics were self evident and others can show that, but in watching him play, when he got on the ice it was if the ice began to tip and the play went one way only.

Thank you Mrs. Lemieux.

But first of all, what would you expect Gretzky to say?: yeah, I am the best ever for sure!

Also, if I remember correctly, he said that Lemieux was the most talented ever (not the best). And many people agree with that. Lemieux's skillset, with his long reach was incredible. He did things that were simply amazing.

But at the game of hockey, making the players around him better, leading by work ethic, changing the way the game was played, scoring as well as playmaking, Gretzky was the best right across the board, IMO.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Comparing players to their peers means that Gretzky and Orr are unquestionably the best players ever.

Quoted so that people will read it again.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I completely agree with this. Gretzky and Lemieux were on a different level than Crosby.

And yes, Orr was also more dominant. IMO, Orr is above Lemieux, but it is those 3, regardless of how you want to rank them. Then, IMO, Howe and then Crosby.

Saying that if you dropped Crosby into the 80s he would dominate is just silly. Yes he is faster and in better shape, but that is a product of the times - in the 80s he too would have had no dietitions, no personal trainers, heavier equipment and skates, etc.

Yes, Crosby works incredibly hard, but for those of you who can't remember, or weren't there, so did Gretzky - and so did all the greatest players. The hard work you see from Crosby is exactly the one ingredient that separates the greats from the really talented like Kovalev and countless others.

To say that he would dominate a different era because of his hard work, simply misses the mark, IMO.

My understanding of Lemieux was that he didn't work that hard. I'm sure I've read that he used to smoke and not practice very seriously.

Really, it seems pretty silly to suggest that hard work made the greats great rather than being phenomenal talents. I think it's only the modern NHL where phenomenal talent alone is not enough to be great and extremely hard work in training has become necessary.

[bossy22]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

My understanding of Lemieux was that he didn't work that hard. I'm sure I've read that he used to smoke and not practice very seriously.

Really, it seems pretty silly to suggest that hard work made the greats great rather than being phenomenal talents. I think it's only the modern NHL where phenomenal talent alone is not enough to be great and extremely hard work in training has become necessary.

A buddy of mine confirmed this...although he only played 6 games with the pens, the rest with Muskegan. He said they'd all be getting bag skated and Mario would be in the can smoking. It was in the 87 canada cup when Mario saw Gretzkys work ethic and he started working harder.

[Captain_Obvious]

Wayne Gretzky holds or shares 61 records. That is far and away the biggest number in major team sport.

Anyone who's willing to state emphatically that someone ranks ahead of him like it's factual needs to give their head a shake and say that number out loud.

Sixty-one records.

That staggering fact should automatically designate anyone else to have "one of the" in front of their names when considering the best ever hockey player.

Gretzky has to be up there at the top by default.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

My understanding of Lemieux was that he didn't work that hard. I'm sure I've read that he used to smoke and not practice very seriously.

Really, it seems pretty silly to suggest that hard work made the greats great rather than being phenomenal talents. I think it's only the modern NHL where phenomenal talent alone is not enough to be great and extremely hard work in training has become necessary.

Two things:

1) the bolded is not true. I don't believe there is a term for it (like racism or sexism for example) but there is always a prevailing bias/prejudice that the modern era is better and things were much easier in the old days. While it's certainly true that there is more information, more training, better equipment, better diets, etc, etc, at the end of the day, each player plays/lives within the limits of their own environment. Yes, things change, but it changes for everyone equally. It is neither easier nor harder today, simply different.

2) With respect to Lemieux, it is true that his work ethic wasn't great early in his career - and that was a knock against him. As the other poster said, it is widely believed/agreed that playing with Gretzky in '87 changed Lemieux and he finally developed that work ethic. And it was after '87 that he became the legend that people today remember (in the early part of his career, he was considered talented but lazy). So Lemieux isn't an exception to the work ethic rule, he is actually one of it's greatest examples.

[flamesfever]

I watched Orr from the time he played with Oshawa until his early retirement from the NHL because of chronic knee problems. He was clearly in a league of his own...a notch above everyone else in the NHL.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by NBC

Have people forgotten the clutch and grab style of play that was predominant during the 70s and 80s? You could hook guys all they way down the ice and if they stayed upright you never got called. Hooking, interference, holding, you never had clutching (holding) the stick penalties called. And we all know how much Crosby likes playing in those conditions.

They game has completely changed from the way it is called to conditioning to equipment. I don't think that this is an easy comparison to make.

Not only that, but back in the 80s Crosby would have had a career path similar to Lafontaine and injuries would have derailed it. It was a much rougher game. That Gretzky played so well and so long is a testament to the goons his team always employed around him