Our 6th Overall Pick: Elias Lindholm or Sean Monahan?

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I will try a different approach.


Would the Oiler's adding Lindholm considerably improve their talent pool , chances of making the playoffs and winning the SC???


How much harder are the Flames to play against than the Oilers? (answer: not any harder than playing against the Oilers)


Put yourself in the Oiler's position..... If the draft goesJones, Mackinnon, Drouin, Barkov as expected

That leaves Lindholm, Nurse, Nichushkin and Monahan available...


IF Nurse and Monahan were gone would they bother picking Linholm or Nichushkin???

Where would they fit in with the Oilers... Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakapov, Gagner,..... so they would be back up if 2 of the Oilers 5 superstars got injured????

The oilers adding yet another soft talented forward does not improve them at all.


If it doesn't help the oilers why will it help the Flames???


If Nurse and Monahan are gone when the Oiler's pick.... and they hang onto their pick they would be far better off taking Mantha ....

I guess I'd argue Calgary and Edmonton's make up is completely different, especially when it comes to prospects. Edmonton has high skill, Calgary doesn't. Lindholm addresses a need for Calgary that Edmonton doesn't have. He might not neccessarily help the Oilers, but he'd help the Flames immensely IMO.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I will try a different approach.


Would the Oiler's adding Lindholm considerably improve their talent pool , chances of making the playoffs and winning the SC???


How much harder are the Flames to play against than the Oilers? (answer: not any harder than playing against the Oilers)


Put yourself in the Oiler's position..... If the draft goesJones, Mackinnon, Drouin, Barkov as expected

That leaves Lindholm, Nurse, Nichushkin and Monahan available...


IF Nurse and Monahan were gone would they bother picking Linholm or Nichushkin???

Where would they fit in with the Oilers... Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakapov, Gagner,..... so they would be back up if 2 of the Oilers 5 superstars got injured????

The oilers adding yet another soft talented forward does not improve them at all.


If it doesn't help the oilers why will it help the Flames???


If Nurse and Monahan are gone when the Oiler's pick.... and they hang onto their pick they would be far better off taking Mantha ....

I don't think anyone disagrees with the Flames needing more size, grit, physical play etc.

But your 'different approach' approach has some immediate holes in it, such as refusing to substantiate your asinine claims of player xyz being soft for made up reasons. If you think Couture is soft, well, I just don't know what to say. Anyhow, if the Flames can get themselves a Couture with their first pick, I will be very VERY happy, and he can exchange slashing penalties as much or as little as he likes. RIDICULOUS

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Tone down the crazy a little ricardodw. Your giving dw's a bad name here.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

after hearing the whole interview, it sounds like they are going after a center so they don't need to move Skinner to the middle

I didn't get that at all. But obviously every top forward outside of Nichuskin is a centre so there is a high likelihood of them landing a centre.

I agree with the one poster who thinks they could have Nichushkin ranked highly. Lets hope!

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Most interesting thing from that Rutherford interview is that the Canes see it as being an elite top 6 and think the guy they get at 5 could end up better than #2. Big difference of opinion from the Flames who sound like they've got an elite top 4 grouping and would like to trade up to get one of the top 4.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by timbit

Couture is a very high character and highly competitive leader with a great skillset; as far from soft as they come. He pays the price... to score , defend, make a play... will block shots and anything else that it takes to win.

What an utterly ridiculous statement....to say that he is soft.

I am claiming this because of watching him extensively since he became an NHL player.

So is he tougher than the Sedin's?

Would he and any combination of San Jose linemates be able to stand up to Backes's or Kopitar's or Getzlaff's lines in a playoff series.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So is he tougher than the Sedin's?

Would he and any combination of San Jose linemates be able to stand up to Backes's or Kopitar's or Getzlaff's lines in a playoff series.

Every single day of the week is the answer to both questions.

Watch the games instead of researching and spreading stats around the board that have SFA to do with compete levels.

Misguided.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Most interesting thing from that Rutherford interview is that the Canes see it as being an elite top 6 and think the guy they get at 5 could end up better than #2. Big difference of opinion from the Flames who sound like they've got an elite top 4 grouping and would like to trade up to get one of the top 4.

Rutherford's comment lead me to believe they want Nichushkin. ISS ranked #2 over all but 3-5 everywhere else.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Max Cow Disease

Based upon my time in the Back-Burner forum, Mantha sounds like one of the "smallest" big men available in the draft. Doesn't play anywhere near his size, and it sounds like his compete has been questioned.

That's fine. I said "Mantha" in quotations for a reason. He doesn't have to be the answer. Perhaps we would get lucky and have Gauthier fall to one of our picks and he could be the guy. Or maybe someone like Rychel who may not be 6'5 but has some people commenting on his physical play:

Aggressive 2-way game, finding his groove. Great shot, excels playing physical & great touch around net.

I do really like the idea of Morin though for a D pick and it is encouraging to see what Button has written up about him from the u18 championship.

[Ashasx]

Couture may not throw big hits, or get roughing calls to rack up his PIMs, but he was 2nd in the league for blocked shots by a forward, he's great defensively...

There are many different ways in this league to be tough and gritty. Not everyone has to be Cal Clutterbuck.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Couture may not through big hits, or get roughing calls to rack up his PIMs, but he was 2nd in the league for blocked shots by a forward, he's great defensively...

There are many different ways in this league to be tough and gritty. Not everyone has to be Cal Clutterbuck.

2 blocked shots on the same Canuck PP, 4 points, and he is carrying this team on his back.

The Calgary Flames would be lucky to have this guy. I believe he is a former Ottawa 67 is he not?

As is one of the players being discussed in this thread.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Wolven

I do really like the idea of Morin though for a D pick and it is encouraging to see what Button has written up about him from the u18 championship.

I'm all on board with Morin as well. I could see him being picked quite high though. Perhaps in the 10 -15 range. Some team will be too intrigued by what he brings to the table to pass on him. He's a guy with big upside.

Santini received glowing reviews. I'd be happy to pick him.

[calgARI]

Originally Posted by timbit

You need to re-evaluate your thinking on "hard" and "tough" and "compete".

You probably think McGrattan is harder and tougher to play against than Couture.

Sad.

Well Feaster seemed to think the same thing when he gave an interview the night McGrattan was brought back (coincidentally the day ROR fiasco began) and said that "we believed we have addressed our lack of toughness in adding McGrattan."

Other than sometimes Glencross, Flames don't have any regular players who play with any sort of physical edge. This is a group of exceptional easy players to play against and the prospect base looks fairly similar.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by calgARI

Well Feaster seemed to think the same thing when he gave an interview the night McGrattan was brought back (coincidentally the day ROR fiasco began) and said that "we believed we have addressed our lack of toughness in adding McGrattan."

Other than sometimes Glencross, Flames don't have any regular players who play with any sort of physical edge. This is a group of exceptional easy players to play against and the prospect base looks fairly similar.

Yeah, we could really use guys like Prust, Bourque, Regehr, Phaneuf... Can someone explain to me why we don't have those guys again?

[ricardodw]

The Flames have put themselves into a position where they just can't ignore the toughness aspect of the game.

If there are two players with close to equal skill the Flames have to pick the one with the extra grit.

Cundari over Smith
Regher over Butler
Mcgratton over Alui over Byron

Even though both Smith and Butler are both "Couture/Sedin" tough.

Bouma or Hanowski over Horak
Rienhart over Cervenka



Monahan over Lindolm.


Horton over Hudler or Cammalleri or Tanguay or Stajan or Stempniak.

Baertschi and 2 of Hudler or Cammalleri or Tanguay or Stajan or Stempniak should be our talented non-gritty guys. all 5 of them are talented but none of them are going to create room for Baertschi or come to his defense in a scrum.

If you want Lindholm then you have to get rid of all but one of Hudler, Cammalleri,Tanguay Stajan or Stempniak...

If you want Lindholm and Gaudreau and Baertshi in the line-up then there is no room for any of the fab 5 (Tanguay, Cammalleri,Hudler, Stajan or Stempniak)

Backlund , in my mind, has graduated out of the all-skill no-grit category.

When Monahan as a 17 year old took a cheap shot he didn't like he went and whaled on Mitchell Heard who was a 20 year old who fights a lot.



If Monahan is within 10% of Lindholm's skill set and the Flames don't go for the big D-man Nurse then it is fairly obvious that the Flames will pick Monahan.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames have put themselves into a position where they just can't ignore the toughness aspect of the game.

If there are two players with close to equal skill the Flames have to pick the one with the extra grit.

Cundari over Smith
Regher over Butler
Mcgratton over Alui over Byron

Even though both Smith and Butler are both "Couture/Sedin" tough.

Bouma or Hanowski over Horak
Rienhart over Cervenka



Monahan over Lindolm.


Horton over Hudler or Cammalleri or Tanguay or Stajan or Stempniak.

Baertschi and 2 of Hudler or Cammalleri or Tanguay or Stajan or Stempniak should be our talented non-gritty guys. all 5 of them are talented but none of them are going to create room for Baertschi or come to his defense in a scrum.

If you want Lindholm then you have to get rid of all but one of Hudler, Cammalleri,Tanguay Stajan or Stempniak...

If you want Lindholm and Gaudreau and Baertshi in the line-up then there is no room for any of the fab 5 (Tanguay, Cammalleri,Hudler, Stajan or Stempniak)

Backlund , in my mind, has graduated out of the all-skill no-grit category.

When Monahan as a 17 year old took a cheap shot he didn't like he went and whaled on Mitchell Heard who was a 20 year old who fights a lot.



If Monahan is within 10% of Lindholm's skill set and the Flames don't go for the big D-man Nurse then it is fairly obvious that the Flames will pick Monahan.

I may not agree with user "Moon" all the time, but 100% of the time I understand his rational and reasons. Therefore, I do respect, even if I don't agree.

This post makes no sense, and has no rationality unless of course your intent is to simply say you like Monahan more than Lindholm. Great and a fine point you have made sir along with the other ~44% of the people who agree.

[the-rasta-masta]

Lindholm is a grittier player than Monahan already. Wait until he steps foot on the small ice.

[Hair bleach and Vodka]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Bouma or Hanowski over Horak

Many other posters here have dealt with the many other flaws in your logic, ricardodw, but this is just odd. I mean.. unless you see Horak as a 4th line mucker? Or have Bouma and Hanowski somehow been elevated in your mind?

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

I may not agree with user "Moon" all the time, but 100% of the time I understand his rational and reasons. Therefore, I do respect, even if I don't agree.

This post makes no sense, and has no rationality unless of course your intent is to simply say you like Monahan more than Lindholm. Great and a fine point you have made sir along with the other ~44% of the people who agree.

Which part of the rationale doesn't make sense?

Basically what he is saying is
- The Flames are now a small team with small prospects that are not physically hard to play against
- In general he believes that NHL teams only have room for 3 all-skill-no-grit players.
- If two prospects are close in skill and potential then we need to pick the bigger, tougher player to compensate for all of our soft "all skill" players.
- He feels that Monahan has demonstrated more grit than Lindholm and provided an example of him standing up to a bigger, more mature player.

I thought it made perfect sense and was easy to understand.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by calgARI

Well Feaster seemed to think the same thing when he gave an interview the night McGrattan was brought back (coincidentally the day ROR fiasco began) and said that "we believed we have addressed our lack of toughness in adding McGrattan."

Other than sometimes Glencross, Flames don't have any regular players who play with any sort of physical edge. This is a group of exceptional easy players to play against and the prospect base looks fairly similar.

Not sure players picked up on waivers can be expected to address much of anything.

Bandaid to camouflage inherent team softness? Perhaps.