Conrad Black: Public-sector unions are a blight on our society

[chemgear]

Do we still need unions in this day and age? (Honest question for discussion perhaps). Let us set aside that it is written by Mr. Black.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...onrad-black-4/


The culture has doubtless increased slovenliness and philistinism. But at the heart of the problem of failing public education are the teachers’ unions. Ununionized schools do better than unionized schools, and ununionized schools do not strike and hold the students hostage, putting extreme pressure on homes where there is no adult at home on work days.

It is now a familiar three-hankey tear-jerker to see teachers’ union representatives passionately explaining that the last thing they wish to do by striking in the middle of the school year is hold the students hostage or impinge on the money-earning capacity of their parents; but that is, of course, what they are doing and why they are doing it. I do not doubt that the teachers have many legitimate grievances against school boards and school administrators. But Duplessis was right: They do not have the right to strike against the public interest.

People are free to change their jobs, to retire and pursue other employment. Collective bargaining is a defiance of the free market, which is efficient and meritocratically fair. Union rules standardize, regiment, stifle initiative, discourage enterprise, and concentrate power to intimidate and influence political decision-making in the hands of unrepresentative and self-serving cabals. Unionization divides any enterprise and creates a them-and-us-mentality that is a collapsed lung that cripples and stultifies any organization.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Do we still need unions in this day and age? (Honest question for discussion perhaps). Let us set aside that it is written by Mr. Black.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...onrad-black-4/

I don't it's fair not to consider the source. Conrad Black, a convicted criminal, and his ilk do more damage to society than public sector unions.

The man effectively looted a pension fund and then went on to be convicted of fraud. 'Nuf said.

[DuffMan]

I agree with him

[DuffMan]

See how many public sector employees are in the top 15 % wage earners in this country.

Here's an excerpt from a recent macleans,

From 2000 to 2010, Alberta's public sector wage bill grew 119 %. It accounted for 95% of the increase in provincial revenues. In Ontario more than half of the governments costs now go to incomes and benefits.

Getting a public sector job is indeed like winning the lottery.

[Zulu29]

He probably thinks courts and prosecutors are a blight on society as well.

[Tyler]

It's pretty great. Not gonna lie.

[Flames in 07]

Unions to me are the single largest reason budgets in canada and the us will never balance again. There's several reasons of course but this is the biggest one. They by their very definition pull you away from a market economy and make money flow inefficient.

They serve one useful purpose I can think of, around ensuring safe, equitable workplaces but in practice .. well im sure many people can post examples of unions going beyond what is efficient for all and spend more time grandstanding to work on their personal reputations than they do actually properly representing their stakeholders. Maybe there are other useful purposes, but its scope is much smaller than what their current mandates are.

Show me a union and I'll show you a workforce that is paid more than their peers (salary + benefits) work less than their peers and ironically are the most unhappy hard-done-by people in the history of their industry.

If people don't like the true value of their job they should retrain and find a new one. Simple as that. I'm glad that column was written and hope there's more of it.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

He probably thinks courts and prosecutors are a blight on society as well.

No. Just unions.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Unions to me are the single largest reason budgets in canada and the us will never balance again. There's several reasons of course but this is the biggest one. They by their very definition pull you away from a market economy and make money flow inefficient.

They serve one useful purpose I can think of, around ensuring safe, equitable workplaces but in practice .. well im sure many people can post examples of unions going beyond what is efficient for all and spend more time grandstanding to work on their personal reputations than they do actually properly representing their stakeholders. Maybe there are other useful purposes, but its scope is much smaller than what their current mandates are.

Show me a union and I'll show you a workforce that is paid more than their peers (salary + benefits) work less than their peers and ironically are the most unhappy hard-done-by people in the history of their industry.

If people don't like the true value of their job they should retrain and find a new one. Simple as that. I'm glad that column was written and hope there's more of it.

Ok, try this one:
UFCW Local 1118

[GGG]

I think private sector unions have a role to play. And as has been seen in the past if a private sector union asks for too much companies can go bankrupt so both the unions and the companies have some incentive to be reasonable.

The problem in the public sector is that the bill is just passed onto the taxpayer. So the union can just ask and ask and withhold services and the government is forced to capitulate. There is no consequence for a public union. Also the public union currently has no grievance but keep wanting more. There total compensation package is superior compared to a private job, job security is better and they still strike because they can get more.

[CaptainCrunch]

Once the public sector unions became more political lobby groups they became far too powerful in terms of swaying elections.

I don't think there's much use for them, while some unions are a force for positive change and enforcement of fair worker practices I can't say the same for the all too powerful public sector and manufacturing group unions.

They're literally trying to kill the golden goose.

[Zarley]

You can thank public sector unions for bringing the wonderful Ms. Redford to power in our province.

[Azure]

Yep, it was nice when the teachers went on strike in the middle of my grade 8 year.

Don't think I learned anything that year.

[T@T]

I'm all for getting rid of unions but how do you ensure fair wages? Look at truck drivers for example, 25 years ago I drove truck and made $18.80/hr under the teamsters union, from memory I think dock workers back then made about a dollar or so less. I see help wanted signs for dock workers today for $16.00/hr

Now that the teamsters are basically gone from Canada if I were to look for the same job I would be lucky to earn $22.00/hr, using an inflation calculator this job should pay somewhere around $34.00/hr. It's a travesty IMO.

One thing unions do/did was keep wages strong according to inflation.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Ok, try this one:
UFCW Local 1118

The members of 1118 are better paid than the industry average.

But in terms of attitude? I imagine that the union leadership under Jack really helped set the tone for them, he was a really good guy to deal with. Sad day when he retired. I think it goes to show how great leadership can really work for a union.

Sadly, it seems to be few and far between.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'm all for getting rid of unions but how do you ensure fair wages? Look at truck drivers for example, 25 years ago I drove truck and made $18.80/hr under the teamsters union, from memory I think dock workers back then made about a dollar or so less. I see help wanted signs for dock workers today for $16.00/hr

Now that the teamsters are basically gone from Canada if I were to look for the same job I would be lucky to earn $22.00/hr, using an inflation calculator this job should pay somewhere around $34.00/hr. It's a travesty IMO.

One thing unions do/did was keep wages strong according to inflation.

The problem with this is that higher wages cause inflation - if your truck driver should be earning a hypothetical $34 an hour ($70k a year on a 40 hour work week), I should be well into 6 figures in IT, never mind the people even more qualified and specialized than me.

At that point, $10-15 for a bag of apples is probably the norm, and we'd need another round of raises.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'm all for getting rid of unions but how do you ensure fair wages? Look at truck drivers for example, 25 years ago I drove truck and made $18.80/hr under the teamsters union, from memory I think dock workers back then made about a dollar or so less. I see help wanted signs for dock workers today for $16.00/hr

Now that the teamsters are basically gone from Canada if I were to look for the same job I would be lucky to earn $22.00/hr, using an inflation calculator this job should pay somewhere around $34.00/hr. It's a travesty IMO.

One thing unions do/did was keep wages strong according to inflation.

You're starting from the position that $18.80/hr was a fair market rate for a truck driver in 1988. That may be true, or it could have been that truckers were overpaid relative to the required education/experience and supply of available labour willing and qualified to do that job. Perhaps the market has corrected itself since then. Is $22.00/hr (~$46k/yr assuming a 40 hour work week) an appropriate/fair wage for that job?

For reference, the average salary for Canadian males in 2012 was $25.42/hr.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'm all for getting rid of unions but how do you ensure fair wages? Look at truck drivers for example, 25 years ago I drove truck and made $18.80/hr under the teamsters union, from memory I think dock workers back then made about a dollar or so less. I see help wanted signs for dock workers today for $16.00/hr

Now that the teamsters are basically gone from Canada if I were to look for the same job I would be lucky to earn $22.00/hr, using an inflation calculator this job should pay somewhere around $34.00/hr. It's a travesty IMO.

One thing unions do/did was keep wages strong according to inflation.

It is in the best interest of the trucking companies who do billions upon billions worth of work each year to pay affordable and fair salaries to retain and hire new employees.

The market already determines the wages for millions of other workers in a non-unionized workplace, and it would do the same for all current unionized employees.

That being said, if the original point of the union was to ensure fair wages and a safe workplace, then the government has to do their due diligence to make sure companies follow proper safety protocols.

As for teachers unions, I agree they need to be disbanded.

[CaptainCrunch]

In the day and age of social media, news media looking for stories, legal options and advocacy groups, a lot of the things that unions do could probably be handled through the individual or through the various government agencies in place.

I do think that the laws governing unions do have to be modified, the rules in place governing how a shop gets unionized are unfair to the businesses that run them.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In the day and age of social media, news media looking for stories, legal options and advocacy groups, a lot of the things that unions do could probably be handled through the individual or through the various government agencies in place.

I do think that the laws governing unions do have to be modified, the rules in place governing how a shop gets unionized are unfair to the businesses that run them.

Yeah, we've seen how that works in Bangladesh. The western world has been using cheap labour from unsafe factories for years and it's been well known for anybody who keeps up with the news and nothing has been done. I think that once the situation in Bangladesh settles down, we'll hear no more about it and foreign businesses will carry on just as they've done.

As for government agencies protecting us, they only do so because of the pressure unions bring on them. Private industry don't give a damn and in fact they lobby (pay) politicians to gut health and safety concerns.

Unions are a part of the checks and balance system and getting rid of them will result in a sorry state for the everyday man and woman. As someone pointed out our real wages of formerly union workers have gone down in real money in the last 25 years. I believe it's not only the union workers but all workers are in the same boat. Union workers set the bar for wages and safety and the non union workers benefit.

As anyone who follows along corporate profits are at all time highs while the richer get richer and the ordinary guy gets paid less and less. Now if things were going the other way you may have an argument that unions are too powerful but as it is, unless you're a millionaire you've been brainwashed.