Poll: "Do you believe in the current mgmt group"

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He's looking at options of trading up in the draft. He's using the NFL draft value chart and figures it should be relative to the NHL. Currently has his head burried in the Hockey News Draft Preview. Ensured fans that he will make these 1st round picks count.

[GREEN]?

Please God I hope this is a joke. And I'm quite sad of the state of affairs in our organisation that this is actually fairly believable.

[Flame Of Liberty]

If San Jose had agreed to trade toskala instead of kipper like we originally wanted, we would have had exactly zero sniffs at post season success in the last 20 years. Hilarious that some still have trust in this "management"

[UKflames]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

If San Jose had agreed to trade toskala instead of kipper like we originally wanted, we would have had exactly zero sniffs at post season success in the last 20 years. Hilarious that some still have trust in this "management"

If that is your arguement then your beef is with KK and every GM we have had since kipper arrived, not with Feaster, who has been in charge on the down swing of kippers playing days.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

If San Jose had agreed to trade toskala instead of kipper like we originally wanted, we would have had exactly zero sniffs at post season success in the last 20 years. Hilarious that some still have trust in this "management"

Yeah, and you can blame the mgmt. for them sucking in Atlanta before sucking here for a few decades

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by FAN

I disagree. Why would ownership and KK be blamed here? It's certainly not the owners job to be well versed in the rules of the CBA. It's not KK's job either. Feaster should have known better. It's not fair to complain about meddling and then blame KK and ownership for rubberstamping something.

I was not saying that KK and ownership needed to be well versed in the rules of the CBA. I was saying that Feaster told them the exact rules, figured he found a loophole, and they were fine with it.

It's just a theory, because i can't see how an ownership group would not dismiss Feaster if he was the lone wolf in the ROR offer sheet. Add to the fact that the mandate was to make the playoffs, and Feaster failed miserably on that mandate.

Either ownership knew what was going on in the ROR offer sheet, or they are the most patient ownership in the NHL.


The weird thing to me is the media has never asked Feaster, after trading Iggy, JBO, and admitting that he read the team wrong, what would have happened if they had gotten ROR?

More than likely they would have won a couple of extra games leading up to the deadline and maybe would have not been inclined to trade both players. More than likely the flames would have still finished around the 6th-7th spot, because the veteran group would have lost more games coming down the stretch when they were out of it. Imagine going into the deep draft with the flames first pick in the 4th round, and Iggy probably leaving for nothing.

Again, Thank You Av's.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

If San Jose had agreed to trade toskala instead of kipper like we originally wanted, we would have had exactly zero sniffs at post season success in the last 20 years. Hilarious that some still have trust in this "management"

...or we might have been a bottom feeder sooner and acquired draft first round picks. Still your point stands, 2004 started us on the "win now" mode, "anything can happen" if we could get into the playoffs.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

[GREEN]?

Please God I hope this is a joke. And I'm quite sad of the state of affairs in our organisation that this is actually fairly believable.

Yeah, if true that sounds like King is the real GM and Feaster is his yes man. Scary but almost believable with the other hints we've had.

I think most GMs go through a learning curve of 1) player (MJ or above), 2) scout, 3) coach, 4) upper management and than GM. Skipping one of these levels seems to be okay but skipping three such as Feaster and four? such as King have done, doesn't give me much confidence.

[ClubFlames]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

If San Jose had agreed to trade toskala instead of kipper like we originally wanted, we would have had exactly zero sniffs at post season success in the last 20 years. Hilarious that some still have trust in this "management"

That trade has what to do with the current management group?

Might as well blame Feaster and King for asking for Todd Harvey over Jarome Iginla. What a joke.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by ClubFlames

That trade has what to do with the current management group?

Might as well blame Feaster and King for asking for Todd Harvey over Jarome Iginla. What a joke.

What are you talking about? I said that if it wasn't for one VERY lucky trade, our management, both past AND present, would have had literally no playoff success in the last 20 years. Some cogs in the machine have been there for ages, some are newer but overall I don't see how anyone can believe in their ability to assemble an above average team.

BTW Its not like the current management group arrived yesterday either.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I was not saying that KK and ownership needed to be well versed in the rules of the CBA. I was saying that Feaster told them the exact rules, figured he found a loophole, and they were fine with it.

It's just a theory, because i can't see how an ownership group would not dismiss Feaster if he was the lone wolf in the ROR offer sheet. Add to the fact that the mandate was to make the playoffs, and Feaster failed miserably on that mandate.

Either ownership knew what was going on in the ROR offer sheet, or they are the most patient ownership in the NHL.

I think we are in disagreement over how much blame KK and ownership should receive had they given Feaster the go ahead despite being well informed of the circumstances. You obviously feel KK and ownership deserves blame I feel this is pretty much all on Feaster, as he is the one responsible for having someone who is well versed in the rules of the CBA.

I never suggested that Feaster was the lone wolf. I am actually operating under the assumption that Feaster told KK and ownership everything they needed to know to make an informed decision. So suppose your theory is correct, what does that mean? That can mean that Feaster simply sold KK and ownership that HIS interpretation of the CBA is correct and that the ROR offer sheet is a feasible move whereby the Flames have a chance to get what Feaster considers to be a franchise player. What if KK and ownership were made aware of the rule and asked Feaster if waivers were required and Feaster replied that his interpretation of the rule is that ROR wouldn't be subject to waivers and that interpretation is shared by ROR's agent? Or what if Feaster even told ownership and KK that the league might have a different interpretation but he's confident that his interpretation is the correct one and feels this is a bold move to secure a potential franchise player? What if, armed with such information and putting their trust in Feaster, ownership told Feaster to go ahead if he thinks this is the right move for the franchise.

Now we know that Feaster has remained defiant in saying that essentially the NHL is wrong. This is nothing new. The Devils maintained that they did nothing wrong when the NHL handed out punishment for cap circumvention. So the fact that ownership hasn't fired Feaster yet could simply mean that they still believe Feaster's interpretation is correct because they believe in Feaster.

So no, I don't really blame ownership and KK here. They hired Feaster to make hockey related decisions and manage the team's assets. Sure, a guy like Murray Edwards likely didn't get to where he is in life without taking risks. But there is a difference between accepting the pitch made by the executive employee he hired to lead your corporation and an owner pushing his own ideas. Let's not be hypocrites here. We can't criticize KK and ownership by speculating that they have been tying Feaster's hands and at the same time blame KK and ownership for support Feaster's decisions or for poor supervision of Feaster.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

If San Jose had agreed to trade toskala instead of kipper like we originally wanted, we would have had exactly zero sniffs at post season success in the last 20 years. Hilarious that some still have trust in this "management"

I didn't realize that the current management group traded for Kipper, or are you suggesting that KK was pulling the Darryl Sutter strings on that trade as well?

[Erick Estrada]

Well according to the "You be the boss" and CP polls it's pretty universal that fans want King gone. 80% of voters want him gone in the larger paper poll. This is a clear message that fans are tired of his involvement in hockey operations. Sorry I am not Ken King but fans have spoken and your father or friend (whatever he is) needs to understand that it was a nice ride while it lasted but it's time to get off as the disdain will only grow more and more as the team flounders as he will continue to be the lightning rod for everything wrong with the organization. Time for him to get out while he still can with his head up.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well according to the "You be the boss" and CP polls it's pretty universal that fans want King gone. 80% of voters want him gone in the larger paper poll. This is a clear message that fans are tired of his involvement in hockey operations. Sorry I am not Ken King but fans have spoken and your father or friend (whatever he is) needs to understand that it was a nice ride while it lasted but it's time to get off as the disdain will only grow more and more as the team flounders as he will continue to be the lightning rod for everything wrong with the organization. Time for him to get out while he still can with his head up.

Pro sports is a little unique though, and Flames would be stupid to make a decision to remove KK based on fans opinion polls. A decision based on attendance, sure, and if fans stop showing up to the games and sighting KK as a reason, then they have to consider it. But to make a decision bases on public opinion of which the public actually no idea about would be bad business.

Ownership is hopefully smart and honest with themselves. They have to reflect and evaluate what role has KK actually played in the on ice state of this team. Is he actually involved in hockey operations, weighing in on trades and day to day, or has he only really been responsible for the hiring and selection of the GMs? Then they also have to ask themselves regardless of the answer to the above questions, how much of his role was he acting autonomously on, advising the owners, versus working in collaboration with them, or potentially simply executing on their wishes.

From there they can build a proper opinion on KK's culpability for the on-ice state of the franchise and the lack of playoff revenue the team generates.

But to remove him because a bunch of fans who actually have no idea what is actually going on behind the scenes "think" that KK is involved too much would be stupid, at least until fans start staying away specifically because they don't like King.

[JiriHrdina]

I hope to heck the flames never make decisions based on calgary sun polls

[atb]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well according to the "You be the boss" and CP polls it's pretty universal that fans want King gone. 80% of voters want him gone in the larger paper poll. This is a clear message that fans are tired of his involvement in hockey operations. Sorry I am not Ken King but fans have spoken and your father or friend (whatever he is) needs to understand that it was a nice ride while it lasted but it's time to get off as the disdain will only grow more and more as the team flounders as he will continue to be the lightning rod for everything wrong with the organization. Time for him to get out while he still can with his head up.

Looks like 51% of respondents skipped the question about KK, which is significantly higher than the average of 5% skips for the other questions. The people who skipped it probably did so because they didn't have an enough info to make an opinion. The people who answered likely just want him gone.

I don't think KK should be let go by the Flames, but he should definitely be removed from any involvement in hockey ops.

[browna]

While there may be a general "sentiment" that's about it, a wide open, non restricted, anonymous internet poll is hardly even accurate for guaging that general sentiment with all the noise and outliers..and lack of real information.

Certainly this Sun poll where, recalling from past years in the late 90's when it wasn't online and you had to write in, you had votes from people who wanted Terry Crisp back or Lanny as coach, or all sorts of other wild, and there were tons of comments like that, and these people were serious. There is so much noise and circumstances, and then the 3 options (keep/trade/give a raise) for everyone doesn't factor in this era of a cap structure and cap hits....even a 4th column like "keep him but for less money" would make sense.

Plus, over half the people in this poll skipped the Ken King question.

I haven't even voted in our poll, because I don't King should be removed as his role as President, because as President, in the role I understand it, being a person to oversee the Flames as a partner in the community, oversee business operations, and act as a conduit between the ownership and hockey operations, he's been proven and continues to be successful.

But as Jiri said, the Flames making decisions based on these polls are far too widely reactionary, to say the least, ludicrous is better term...is Feaster going to buyout Stajan because he's the only regular forward that the "majority of fans" want to let go? Possibly the most consistent player on the team this past year?

Same with Sarich...lets keep Butler and Smith, but Sarich, the toughest guy (something glaringly missing from this team if these "fans" were actually watching) and most dependable defenseman in that second tier, should be bought out or traded, resoundingly?

So if looking at things at that player level, the same sort of perspective needs to be taken with the results when it comes to a position like KK which is a lot less visible to anyone watching.

All the coaches get a huge thumbs up for coming back...a coaching staff that took largely the same roster as last year, and abandoned any semblence of a defense?

So, if you take a bigger picture look at this poll, where do the people who responded seem to place the blame for how things went so wrong this season? Most forwards, outside of Stajan, Byron, and Jones, the fans want back. Babchuk and Sarich are the only ones the respondents wanted gone from defense. And the GM and coaches has the majority of poll respondents on their side. So again, where's the major blame for why this season sucked and regressed? King, Kiprusoff, Iginla, and Bouwmeester?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Ownership is hopefully smart and honest with themselves.

This is the entire problem in a nutshell. Flames ownership hasn't been smart or honest with themselves. King is an extension of that. The reality is the Murray Edwards and company don't treat the Flames like they do their own private businesses. I can guarantee if CNRL started to flounder that he would not sit idly and let the people below him making poor decisions maintain their positioning within the company. He's just like the guy up north in that it's a hobby that the the results aren't as important as the fun of living a childhood dream of being involved in the NHL hockey. I don't expect Edwards to make any solid, honest decisions as this is their little hobby not their livelihood. Everyone seems to dance around the important fact that if anyone deserves to be fired it's ownership.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is the entire problem in a nutshell. Flames ownership hasn't been smart or honest with themselves. King is an extension of that. The reality is the Murray Edwards and company don't treat the Flames like they do their own private businesses. I can guarantee if CNRL started to flounder that he would not sit idly and let the people below him making poor decisions maintain their positioning within the company. He's just like the guy up north in that it's a hobby that the the results aren't as important as the fun of living a childhood dream of being involved in the NHL hockey. I don't expect Edwards to make any solid, honest decisions as this is their little hobby not their livelihood. Everyone seems to dance around the important fact that if anyone deserves to be fired it's ownership.

The fact that Edwards was front and centre in this last round of CBA negotations pretty much shoots down that theory of a "hobby". Pretty sure he wants to continue the Flames involvement, if even for his own personal gains, to climb up the NHL ladder in those high level circles, in the same vein that Harley Hotchkiss trailblazed for the last decade+.

So in that sense, I don't think he'll want his franchise to be the laughing stock its dangerously close to being at this point in time. Proof will be what he does this summer to make some changes at the top.

I've said repeatedly, personally, that I think he gave King too much control after Darryl didn't make the playoffs in the Phanuef deal year. Feaster's hire as full time GM was one that I am sure Feaster sold well, and also knew that Feaster was more open to "suggestion" than Darryl was. That allowed him to implement his ideas that he had, without much push back. A bad season this year and some big time upper management mess ups this season, have exposed the fact that maybe he was a bit too involved and didn't make all the right decisions, in something he had to handle different than his regular business.

He makes up for those mistakes and gets some "hockey" people he trusts completely to run the the day to day operations and longer term decision making process when it comes to rosters, coaches and drafts and inseason moves, and the "laughing stock" moniker may be forgotten if the right moves are made decisively, and those around the league know who the one guy, who has the hockey world's respect for, who is in charge of things here in Calgary.

[Vulcan]

I think the biggest mistake the Flames have been making since 04 is to concentrate on making the playoffs every year. This order has seemed to be coming from the ownership and has been a poor long term philosophy which has landed the Flames in their current situation. As Darryl said the 04 run changed the expectations for the team and may have set it back for long term growth. Darryl was stuck with this philosophy and ended up making deadline trades for short term results. His luck finally ran out and Feaster is playing the same cards up until this year. My fear is the owners think this year has been an anomaly and they'll try to buy their way into the playoffs next season. A change of philosophy is needed before thinking about changes to the GM position although that may be a good idea as well.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is the entire problem in a nutshell. Flames ownership hasn't been smart or honest with themselves. King is an extension of that. The reality is the Murray Edwards and company don't treat the Flames like they do their own private businesses. I can guarantee if CNRL started to flounder that he would not sit idly and let the people below him making poor decisions maintain their positioning within the company. He's just like the guy up north in that it's a hobby that the the results aren't as important as the fun of living a childhood dream of being involved in the NHL hockey. I don't expect Edwards to make any solid, honest decisions as this is their little hobby not their livelihood. Everyone seems to dance around the important fact that if anyone deserves to be fired it's ownership.

That's one (of many potential) reasons for things going badly. Another is exactly the opposite of what you just said. I don't know anything about Edwards leadership style over at CNRL, so let me just get that out the way. But isn't it just as likely that when things don't go well over there, Edwards is a role up his sleeves get involved type of guy? Rights the ship, or at least helps right it himself?

Maybe that's a management style that works for him in that business, and maybe his abilities in that business make him very successful at it. And maybe that's what he's trying to do with the Flames, get himself involved to right the ship, only he's not really qualified to do so when it comes to the NHL. So what he's not actually sitting idly by while others mess up, maybe he's taking control out of there hands.

Let me be clear, I don't have any reason to believe the above to be true, but I think it's just as likely a scenario as the he's running it like a hobby theory.