Poll: "Do you believe in the current mgmt group"

[browna]

King and the ownership group have taken some of the power away from the blank cheque that Sutter had, and most GM's have, since the end of the Phauenf trade year. Conicides also with Hotchkiss taking a step back from the team before his passing, and Edwards taking over the mantle.

More checks and balances, tighter control, whatever you want to call it, KK and Edwards became more involved. Feaster took the job knowing full well the structure, and knew that was the role.

He can say he has "full control", but its with conssnt and group discussion with King and Edwards et al. to get to that point. So everyone's to blame in some aspect, for either letting it happen, or not stepping back, or both.

Feaster's made his own statements and own mistakes on his own, as well, as have been documented again and again.

Finally, this team is moving on, with the changes already made, and more big decisions this summer with draft picks, buyouts, and cap space; decisions that will affect the next 5-10 years of this franchise. Can you really see Feaster being here for that much longer, himself having said he wasn't here to be the guy who was going to rebuild?

I can't, so cut your losses now...don't wallow around for another year and "see what happens".

King doesn't get fired, he gets moved up to another role, and Edwards takes a step back, and lets a strong hockey guy he trusts take care of the day to day and year to year decisions for this staff and ultimately the roster on the ice, and a guy who won't take Edwards or King trying to provide input on decisions they really shouldn't have a say in.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by fotze

I really, really want to know where the belief that this team was 'close' came from, these past many years. As much as Tinordi thinks he was the only one, I think most people here saw it, most people I have talked to saw it, most fans of other teams saw it, and most hockey commentaters saw it.

Probably continually finishing 9th. When you finish 9th you've got to feel like if your team showed up with a real effort for 1 or 2 more games per season you'd be playing in the post season. The reality was probably that Kiprusoff was lifting a poor team up to 9th place, but I'm glad that they are in rebuild mode finally.

I don't mind what Feaster has done so far, not a huge fan of his trades but it is hard to evaluate trades or drafts until a couple years after they happen.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by JayP

Then you must be firmly on the "Fire Feaster" bandwagon as your description describes Jay perfectly.

It doesn't even look like he voted. But I guess in Resolute's it is easier to lob pot shots when no one even knows where you stand in the first place.

[boggledepot]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The ROR debacle wasn't a debacle because of the technicality. It was a debacle because the team was trading a top end pick in a very deep draft for a relatively unproven and incredibly expensive center to try to hoist them into the playoffs. Again, a strategy that has repeatedly failed over the past 4 years.

That move was just damning. No competent management team makes a move like that.

The technicality and that fallout was just icing on the cake.

We would have been watching us continue to flail while Colorado enjoyed Monahan or Lindholm on their roster for 7+ years.

I'm amused how we have gone and assessed the quality of the upcoming draft, well before having seen any of these players actually play in the NHL. It is probably better to wait a few years, and see how a class integrates itself into the NHL, before describing a draft year as 'very deep'.

The Ryan O'Reilly movement was interesting. I am surprised Colorado matched, but I guess they had no desire of watching their center go to the Flames. It might be better to view the entire ROR event as a game of poker, and Calgary called Colorado's hand. In the end, Colorado ended up paying way more then they wanted. And, if O'Reilly is a "relatively unproven and incredibly expensive center", I wonder what Colorado will have to pay to keep Duchene and Landeskog under contract.

As far as assessing the Flames management goes... who knows. The Flames aren't a winning team, but I'm in no position to assess Ken King because I don't even know what his job entails. The Calgary Hitmen are still battling; does that mean Ken King is doing good job? Probably not.

[boggledepot]

Originally Posted by neo45

The Kotalik dump was one of his worst trades yet. He either gave up a 2nd round pick because he didn't want to pay Kotalik to play in Europe (owners fault), or he gave up a 2nd round pick for Paul Byron (depending on different accounts of the trade).

Either way either King or Feaster dropped the ball on that one

This is the most peculiar sentiment.

Most sane people wouldn't pay two cents to an employee, knowing full well he was going to work somewhere else. And, I guarantee there is not one person on this board who is in the position to pay 3.5 million dollars to someone, just so he can go and work somewhere else.

Maybe, business is different when its hockey.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Hindsight bias, now that something has happened, it was obvious to all of us all along.

Oh please, you and a few others must have sore backs from patting yourselves on the back so much.

A lot of people saw the franchise heading in the wrong direction but the plan was "win now" and usually when that's the plan, a few years later you pay the price. We are now paying that price. But please stop pretending like you knew something no one else did, you just kept repeating the same point thinking nobody "gets it"...that's not hindsight, that's your ego.

[Mister Yamoto]

Feaster totally dropped the ball last July 1st. 18 million in cap space 2 days before July 1 and he gets Comeau, Stempniak, Sarich, Wideman and Hudler.

I don't want him managing the cap space this July 1st. He has done enough damage. I am very disappointed that he is still here. I have no faith in him what so ever.

His interviews are embarrassing. He sure has a knack for putting his foot in his mouth.

And I hate how things get done just for optics. For example, did the Flames sign Lamb and Eddy last season to bring in 2 players who could be developed into NHLers or was it just so Feaster could say "Look at me! Look at me! I am an out of the box thinker, I signed college free agents!" ?

[JiriHrdina]

Most college free agents don't work out, plus lamb had a good first year. Nothing wrong with those moves.

I don't think he would sign a guy just for optics.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Oh please, you and a few others must have sore backs from patting yourselves on the back so much.

A lot of people saw the franchise heading in the wrong direction but the plan was "win now" and usually when that's the plan, a few years later you pay the price. We are now paying that price. But please stop pretending like you knew something no one else did, you just kept repeating the same point thinking nobody "gets it"...that's not hindsight, that's your ego.

Exactly.

Also, to all those that felt they were right all along, three things:

1) just because going for it didn't work out, doesn't mean it wasn't right to try.

2) by all accounts that I have heard, Iginla would not have accepted a trade prior to this year. If that is the case, then any discussions with respect to a rebuild prior to this year are moot.

3) going for it, and acquiring more veterans in the attempt, actually aided the rebuild by stock-piling the Flames with more assets to move. Sure, Iginla is older (but see point 2) and Kipper (may have) rode into the sunset (but again, he would have in all likelihood not have accepted a trade either). But Bouwmeester got more than he would have. Cammalleri, Stempniak, Stajan and Tanguay are available to move this year. And Hudler, Wideman, Giordano and Glencross will be available to move in the next couple years.

So for anyone that's trying to pat themselves on the back, give it a rest already.

[iamca]

Hard to believe in our management group from a hockey standpoint when you have to go back to 2004 for any on-ice success and even 2009 for making the playoffs.

That's a dismal record in a hockey-centric area like southern Alberta.

2009 -- lost to Chicago, 4-2, Western Conf. quarterfinals

2008 -- lost to San Jose, 4-3, Western Conf. quarterfinals

2007 -- lost to Detroit, 4-2, Western Conf. quarterfinals

2006 -- lost to Anaheim, 4-3, Western Conf. quarterfinals

2004 -- defeated Vancouver, 4-3, Western Conf. quarterfinals
defeated Detroit, 4-2, Western Conf. semifinals
defeated San Jose, 4-2, Western Conf. finals
lost to Tampa Bay, 4-3, in Stanley Cup Finals

1996 -- lost to Chicago, 4-0, Western Conf. quarterfinals

1995 -- lost to San Jose, 4-3, Western Conf. quarterfinals

1994 -- lost to Vancouver, 4-3, Western Conf. quarterfinals

1993 -- lost to Los Angeles, 4-2, Smythe Division semifinals

1991 -- lost to Edmonton, 4-3, Smythe Division semifinals

1990 -- lost to Los Angeles, 4-2, Smythe Division semifinals

The fan base clearly supports the team, but a lot of us are die hard fanatics.

[Canada 02]

The 2010-11 season, was like a David Copperfield illusion; the Flames had a great run after Darryl was fired and missed the playoffs by just 3 pts. They had the 5th best offense in the league, and Iginla was 6th in NHL scoring. It was a pretty convincing illusion - I can accept that management fell for it.

The 2011/12 season was more like a kindergarten magic trick; no one should have fallen for it, especially after they were fooled the year before by a much better trick. The rebuild should have started no later than the Feb 2012 trade deadline, and a manager who wasn't easily fooled would have done so Feb 2011.

The fact that this management group was at least 12 months behind, and was still going for it by trying to sign O'reilly tells me they are still grasping at straws, still easily fooled, and not the right people for the job.

[nik-]

Really 2006 is the last time we were a legit threat.

2007 was an embarrassment and probably would have been a 4 game sweep with a -20 goal differential if it hadn't of been for Kipper

2008 we won some games on emotion after Sarich killed a guy

2009 we probably should have won a round, but losing Regehr just before the playoffs and Phaneuf being obviously injured hurt us. That year was too bad because we might have had a chance.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by boggledepot

This is the most peculiar sentiment.

Most sane people wouldn't pay two cents to an employee, knowing full well he was going to work somewhere else. And, I guarantee there is not one person on this board who is in the position to pay 3.5 million dollars to someone, just so he can go and work somewhere else.

Maybe, business is different when its hockey.

I agree with what you are saying, but the Sabres owner had no problem in doing it. They did not even let Kotalik lace up for exhibition games just in case he got hurt.

Feaster has said that ownership would put millions down on the farm if it was necessary. It really looks like it was more for the pitch for Richards.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Another question: aside from what the CP consensus is, what do you think will happen? My guess is that everyone stays.

I want Feaster gone and KK promoted, but neither is going to happen.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by nik-

Really 2006 is the last time we were a legit threat.

2007 was an embarrassment and probably would have been a 4 game sweep with a -20 goal differential if it hadn't of been for Kipper

2008 we won some games on emotion after Sarich killed a guy

2009 we probably should have won a round, but losing Regehr just before the playoffs and Phaneuf being obviously injured hurt us. That year was too bad because we might have had a chance.

I would say coming out of the 2009 trade deadline we looked like legit contenders until injuries derailed that season. The Flames were comfortably in 3rd in the west and add a Top 4 D that was comfortable here and a big number 1 C.

I remember watching games with TSN and others wondering if the Flames were in the same class as the Wings and Sharks in the west elite. We lost Gio (who was emerging), Bourque (best season as a Flame), Langkow, Bertuzzi, Phanuef, Sarich, Regehr. All of these guys were out or playing hurt. Should have won the division that year and should have challenged for the cup.

It blew my mind that Keenan was fired, Bert and Cammy were let go for nothing, and the Flames decided to keep their first pick when it was a 20th pick.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I want Feaster gone and KK promoted, but neither is going to happen.

To what position?

He's already the President and CEO of the Flames (http://flames.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=40733), President, CEO and Governor of the Calgary Hitmen (http://www.hitmenhockey.com/page/hoc...erations-staff), President and CEO of the Calgary Roughnecks (http://www.calgaryroughnecks.com/sit..._page&pageID=7), Co-Chair and CFL Alternate Governor of the Calgary Stampeders (http://www.stampeders.com/exec_committee)and President and CEO of the Calgary Flames Limited Partnership (http://www.stampeders.com/ken-king).

[BigFlameDog]

I'm in the Yes to both "for now" camp. Unlike a lot of you I am not privy to the inner workings and communications of the locker room and the front office so I am going to go ahead and give them a chance to see if they can pull it off.

Feaster is under a different mandate now and has put some, seemingly, good staff in place so let's see how it goes. Ken King, until I hear proof otherwise, is the business side, and judging by my VISA balance at the end of each season and the jersey's in my closet, business is good.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I want Feaster gone and KK promoted, but neither is going to happen.

If one had to go I would want it to be King as he's had a decade and the results on the ice have steadily declined every season after 2004 which seems to coincide with his increasing influence on the team. He also casts a large shadow over the GM chair wich is why we have to settle for GM's like Feaster that are just happy to have the job compared to more sought after candidates. Not going to get a top notch GM as long as King is president.

[Sgrath]

Some thoughts on management

Things we know to be true or at least accept as common knowledge
* Before this season the Flames needed more scoring potential / increase in skill (still do but not the point)
* We needed to get younger
* Pre-season predictions were 14th in the West
* You don't make the play-offs with only 1 true centre
* You don't make the play-offs without grit
* you won't make the play-offs with a weak defence
* Ownership get in the way of decision making
* Ownership would not trade Iggy / Iggy wouln't agree to be traded unless he had no hope
* A rebuild couldn't really start while Iggy was here
* A rebuild had to happen
* Hartley is not the greatest defensive minded coach out there
* The players are mentally fragile.
* This is supposed to be a real deep draft year

Now this is the supposition on my part - with a good dose of hindsight
Feaster and staff were fully aware of all of the above points. He could not persuade ownership to blow the team up at end of last season. So how do you blow up a team while not obviously blowing a team up? Well building a team that is small with no grit and no centres is a pretty good starting point. In fact everything that was done in the off-season and since does point to a deliberate, if subtle, losing policy. Each off season trade / UFA signing attempts could be sold to ownership as part of "win-now" yet also be part of a tank strategy.

In fact with a full season to play with we'd have been out of play-off hunt and have a top 3 pick sewn up by Dec. and would probably have been able to get a better deal for Iggy and Bo.

The more I look back on everything the more I feel that this seasons team was deliberately built to fail from the start. The media knew we'd suck, we knew in our heads we'd suck (even if in our hearts we wanted success) and the players surely knew the team wasn't built for success, which may explain some of the performances.

On to the ROR offer sheet. This feels very much like it was a deal between GM's to force ROR's hand and just get a deal done. It would have kept the 'win now' faction of CGY ownership happy that we were really trying to win and it kept COL happy in that they got their guy signed to a deal they could accept without losing face. People did seem slightly surprised at the timing and the speed of the matching offer.

[calumniate]

^^ Ouch! Hurts man, really hurts. But I can't really argue with it