The draft lottery is still a joke

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

What is the outrage over? That paying fans don't get to see the best possible lineups? That's a fair criticism. But otherwise, it's an invariably flawed system by rewarding failure. There's no other way around it and the incentives it creates. The alternative is just not as good in the long-term health of the league.

This is why the 3 point game argument hangs over this conversation. Most people on the board are against the current point system but it does serve to keep more teams "in it" to compete to the very end.

You can't be against the point system and against the draft lottery system at the same time.

That was actually my argument against the short season in that the amount of 3 point games didn't create enough separation from the 9th place conference teams to the 15th making it too easy for teams to fold in the last month and pick top 5. We have teams like the Devils and Predators that were weeks ago in the thick of the playoff race now in the thick of picking top 6. I doubt we see this tanking to the same extent in an 82 game season but it doesn't change the fact that it's a bit of an embaressment because some of these teams that have shut down aren't some of the usual suspects.

[Robbob]

I like the ball idea, but you can modify it slightly. Teams 1-5 get five balls, teams 6-10 get 3, teams 11-14 get one. For each 1st overall or playoff appearance in the last five years you get a ball deducted. for each year over five that you have not made the play offs you add a ball. Minimum you can have is one ball.

Just a basic frame work and I don't know how the odds exactly pan out, but it gives the best chance to the worst five, but also limits or prevents a team amassing a ton of first overalls.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is why the 3 point game argument hangs over this conversation. Most people on the board are against the current point system but it does serve to keep more teams "in it" to compete to the very end.

You can't be against the point system and against the draft lottery system at the same time.

How is this post in any way related to the thread? Weird post, honestly.

Just because someone doesn't like tanking doesn't mean they want every team to be "in it".

[bucksmasher]

chances are its too late to tank

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

I liked the Fan 960 idea this morning to be honest.

The idea I think is this once a team is mathematically elimanted from the playoffs. Then the team with the most points accumulated between then and the end of the season gets the first pick and so on down the line.

For Example:

If Columbus were eliminated from the playoffs on game 60 then they would have game 61 - 82 to try and accumulate the most amount of points possible. Let's say that is 10 points.

If Edmonton were eliminated from the playoffs on game 72. Then they would have game 73 - 82 to try and accumulate the most amount of points possible. Let's say 5 points and came in 4th.

In this example Columbus picks first and then Team 2, Team 3, and then Edmonth 4th.

This would prevent the tanking theory, but it would still bring fans to the rink trying to cheer their team onto victory.

Also, I'd stop being a fan of the Edmonton Oilers, Carolina Hurricanes, Tampa Bay Lightning, Florida Panthers, Colorado Avalanche, Nashville Predators. It's too hard cheering for all these teams to win.

I heard that as well but it's not well thought out. All that does is give teams an incentive to tank hard and tank early. Once they've tanked hard, they just have more time to accumulate points towards cementing their tank position.

And in most years that'll just mean a whole bunch of teams that have accumulated 2-3 points after falling out of the playoff race, so it won't matter much in the lottery. This mechanism also punishes the team that fought hard until the last game of the season to make the playoffs, since they would have accumulated zero points towards the "you're out of the playoffs" competition.

[Five-hole]

The ironic part is that by showcasing all these rookies and giving them a taste, they're trying as hard as they possibly can to show that they belong and that they should be given a roster spot next year.

Funny how well a meritocracy works. If only we'd tried this earlier...

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

This mechanism also punishes the team that fought hard until the last game of the season to make the playoffs, since they would have accumulated zero points towards the "you're out of the playoffs" competition.

Right.... but that team will have probably 14th pick, so you haven't changed anything for them anyway.
What it changes things for is a team like the Oilers, losing 10 in a row to finish the season, and getting a top 5 pick as a result.
This way they get 12th maybe.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

The ironic part is that by showcasing all these rookies and giving them a taste, they're trying as hard as they possibly can to show that they belong and that they should be given a roster spot next year.

I was actually discussing this with an Oilers fan of all fans and his theory which I kind of agree to some extent is that the Flames brough up too many callups. Vetern players usually check out once they know they are eliminated and have a difficult time getting up for the meaningless games after battling hard for the first 3/4 of the season. Meanwhile all these AHL players are amped up to play their first games and showcase their talents in hopes to win a full time job next season. The Oilers look like a team that is clearly looking towards the offseason while the it's 'now time' for most of the Flames roster.

[Steve Bozek]

Once a team is eliminated from playoff contention, as a fan, I don't mind seeing some regulars sitting out in favour of our legitimate prospects currently playing in the AHL. The rest of the season essentially becomes exhibition games. I would only object if the team was playing with no effort, like they did in the 8-2 stinker with the Oilers, but I think the Flames had a reasonable excuse for that game - they were completely demoralized by the major roster change they had just gone through.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

I liked the Fan 960 idea this morning to be honest.

The idea I think is this once a team is mathematically elimanted from the playoffs. Then the team with the most points accumulated between then and the end of the season gets the first pick and so on down the line.

For Example:

If Columbus were eliminated from the playoffs on game 60 then they would have game 61 - 82 to try and accumulate the most amount of points possible. Let's say that is 10 points.

If Edmonton were eliminated from the playoffs on game 72. Then they would have game 73 - 82 to try and accumulate the most amount of points possible. Let's say 5 points and came in 4th.

In this example Columbus picks first and then Team 2, Team 3, and then Edmonth 4th.

This would prevent the tanking theory, but it would still bring fans to the rink trying to cheer their team onto victory.

Also, I'd stop being a fan of the Edmonton Oilers, Carolina Hurricanes, Tampa Bay Lightning, Florida Panthers, Colorado Avalanche, Nashville Predators. It's too hard cheering for all these teams to win.

The sample size of games after teams get eliminated from the playoffs is far too small to determine something as important as draft order. The Oilers were the 2nd worst team in the league last season and they weren't technically eliminated from playoff contention until after game 74 of the season. Most teams aren't eliminated until the final few games which would place a disproportionate amount of emphasis on a few games rather than the much larger sample of of an 82 game season.

[Kaine]

I said it in the other thread but this is the start of training camp for next season, personally I'd rather them test out these prospects in meaningless games rather than at the start of next season when wins will really matter again. Don't get me wrong I'd be thrilled if they still won out the season, I'm not of the "tanking" group.

That said yes the draft lottery is a joke and will continue to be as I can't see them changing it any time soon. I do like the "ping pong balls" idea many have put forth but I haven't seen a stipulation on how standings would effect the number of balls that makes total sense yet. I have no ideas.

[Tinordi]

Bottom line there are no good options besides keeping as many teams "in it" as possible and bestowing the best picks to the statistically worse teams. That at least reduces the incentives to tank among all but the worst.

[Erick Estrada]

Well if anyone was wondering before if the Flames would have been fine drafting 8-10 I think we have our answer. I don't blame them because if any team needed this it was the Flames but the way things have played out it seems drafting top 6 just isn't in the cards for a variety of reasons not all linked to their lineup as opponents playing like garbage is out of the Flames control.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The sample size of games after teams get eliminated from the playoffs is far too small to determine something as important as draft order.

Not draft order, only first round order.
A pingpong ball decides now, and solely did with Sidney Crosby. Yes granted, with some criteria.
Anyway... I'll let this go now. It is a bit too far out there.

But I'm all for something that protects the integrity of the game... so we don't see what we are seeing now. It's brutal

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I was actually discussing this with an Oilers fan of all fans and his theory which I kind of agree to some extent is that the Flames brough up too many callups.

I won't argue with this point. If there is anyone who is a champion of losing it's the Oilers and their fans.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I like the mathmatical elimination from the playoff idea to determine the lottery spots. I also feel an additional layer to limit the number of Top 3 or #1 picks a team can have in a row or over a certain period of time could also be a good angle to look at. Something along the lines of, sorry if you can't build a winner after getting 3 first overalls in a row, you can't get another X amount of time.

[Five-hole]

On the plus side I think we have some good evidence to say that Troy Ward is doing an excellent job at getting our prospects ready for the NHL game. Most of them have not looked out of place at the NHL pace of play and the system.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Kaine

I said it in the other thread but this is the start of training camp for next season, personally I'd rather them test out these prospects in meaningless games rather than at the start of next season when wins will really matter again. Don't get me wrong I'd be thrilled if they still won out the season, I'm not of the "tanking" group.

That said yes the draft lottery is a joke and will continue to be as I can't see them changing it any time soon.

Problem with all this icing the players when the games don't count is that next season when they do count we know most of them won't be playing. Hartley played the veteran players as much as possible right down to the very end until his boss told him they were going to play the kids. I can guarantee that next season any of these young players that do make the team will be on a very short leash getting few minutes.

What we have been witnessing over the past week or more is nothing but an illusion. It's like everyone forgot how little ice time Sven was getting earlier in the season or the quick cup of coffee Horak got while plugs like Comeau were getting as much ice time as Iginla gets on the Penguins. That's what we will see in October when the games count again.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I agree with the OP - though I think the difference between what Edmonton did and teams like Calgary (who exist every year) is Edmonton started 3 seasons with the intent of finishing last. All out, every shift.

I like some version of the ping pong ball idea.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Problem with all this icing the players when the games don't count is that next season when they do count we know most of them won't be playing. Hartley played the veteran players as much as possible right down to the very end until his boss told him they were going to play the kids. I can guarantee that next season any of these young players that do make the team will be on a very short leash getting few minutes. What we have been witnessing over the past week or more is nothing but an illusion.

I can't argue with that, I have been hoping that he would be gone by the time next season started as he is not the coach I want leading a team full of youngsters but that is a discussion for another thread.