Explosion at the Boston Marathon

[stang]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not sure how reliable.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...#ixzz2R9pqgP6d

Wasn't there something about 3 others arrested during the search?

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't have a problem with how the system handles serious problems like surgeries, etc, etc. My problem has always been with how it handles 'minor' cases like stitches, fingers being cut off, broken bones, etc, etc.

And there is nothing worse than sitting in the waiting room for hours on end with a child in severe pain because he broke his hand. Even worse is when people tell you to quit bitching about it because its FREE.

I waited for over an hour just to get some sort of pain meds when I was passing kidney stones. the best part is when I went in for gall stones over a dozen times and they give me pain meds after a few hour wait and kick me to the curb.

[Wormius]

The concerning part to me is how terrorist organizations will look at this and realize that with two yahoos, and some jury-rigged explosives, that they can effectively shut down a major city for a week.

While I applaud the perseverance that law enforcement applied, I wonder if this whole episode just showed terrorist organizations a way of essentially shutting down economies, and redirecting resources at the expense of 2 or 3 of their guys.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not sure how reliable.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...#ixzz2R9pqgP6d

You are seriously quoting an article wedged in between Kate Middleton baby plans and Michael Jackson death conspiracies? Isn't the mirror like a step below the Enquirer in integrity?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Wormius

The concerning part to me is how terrorist organizations will look at this and realize that with two yahoos, and some jury-rigged explosives, that they can effectively shut down a major city for a week.

While I applaud the perseverance that law enforcement applied, I wonder if this whole episode just showed terrorist organizations a way of essentially shutting down economies, and redirecting resources at the expense of 2 or 3 of their guys.

The city only went into lockdown on friday after the gunfight revealed the one assclown was wearing an explosive vest...and the hunt to get #2 was concentrated in that one area of Watertown after he ran out of the SUV. They new he had expolsive ordinances at one point, so they just made sure no one else would get hurt and took that extraordinary step of shutting down all public transit etc.

This was a rather unique situation and should be viewed as such.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by stang

Wasn't there something about 3 others arrested during the search?

Yes, they arrested 2 males and 1 female I believe. They also made a similar call over the scanner Thursday night/Friday morning, so I assume that's the arrest they were referring to in that call.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Yes, they arrested 2 males and 1 female I believe. They also made a similar call over the scanner Thursday night/Friday morning, so I assume that's the arrest they were referring to in that call.

I thought that was Friday night during the lockdown and 20 block perimeter they set up no? One of the last houses they searched before lifting the "lockdown".

I am not sure of any involvement they had, but they probably got taken in for questioning. I haven't heard anything regarding what happened to them afterwards though.

[jayswin]

Off topic, but just out of curiosty. It sounds like the cops were busting into lots of houses, looking for the guys. If they found something illegal in a house, unrelated to their search, what are the legalities of that?

Can they come back and deal with it, or would they basically have to pretend they didn't see anything, as they didn't have a warrant?

[1stLand]

12 Terrorist Sleeper Cell in Boston? In 9/11 didnt one of the Planes that hit the tower fly out of Boston?

I wonder if there is a terrorist sleeper cell in Calgary.
Wouldn't surprise me.

The terrible thing is, the cops or FBI or whoever can't make an example out of a captured terrorist. Terrorists don't care if they are caught, they don't value human life ,not even their own.

[browna]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The city only went into lockdown on friday after the gunfight revealed the one assclown was wearing an explosive vest...and the hunt to get #2 was concentrated in that one area of Watertown after he ran out of the SUV. They new he had expolsive ordinances at one point, so they just made sure no one else would get hurt and took that extraordinary step of shutting down all public transit etc.

This was a rather unique situation and should be viewed as such.

Maybe so, but the way that day played out so publicly certainly gives those wacko copycatters looking for attention an idea of what they can accomplish with following a certain procedure/methods.

Was it confirmed that they were planting more bombs at MIT or were they just sort of in the area (carrying guns,yes, not a surprise if they were already identified on the TV at that point of the night) and fingered/recognized by the MIT police officer and they killed him to get away?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

12 Terrorist Sleeper Cell in Boston? In 9/11 didnt one of the Planes that hit the tower fly out of Boston?

I wonder if there is a terrorist sleeper cell in Calgary.
Wouldn't surprise me.

The terrible thing is, the cops or FBI or whoever can't make an example out of a captured terrorist. Terrorists don't care if they are caught, they don't value human life ,not even their own.

Most likely. I remember reading somewhere that there were rumors of cells in Ontario and Alberta. That was a few years ago, and I believe they mentioned rural southern Alberta, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a Calgary connection. There's probably hundreds of those cells in North America.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The city only went into lockdown on friday after the gunfight revealed the one assclown was wearing an explosive vest...and the hunt to get #2 was concentrated in that one area of Watertown after he ran out of the SUV. They new he had expolsive ordinances at one point, so they just made sure no one else would get hurt and took that extraordinary step of shutting down all public transit etc.

This was a rather unique situation and should be viewed as such.

They also had the kid cornered and somehow he was able to get through their barricade

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by PIMking

They also had the kid cornered and somehow he was able to get through their barricade

Because he drove an SUV at the officers arresting his brother while everyone was on the ground. I haven't read anything regarding the type of barricade they set up, if any during said firefight.

I don't know anything about the street they were located in, how many responding vehicles there were, etc. No doubt there was going to be holes in the initial barricade.

I am sure none of the responding officers expected the younger brother to drive over his older brother to escape.

[Itse]

I really dislike the term "sleeper cell" used about people like this, since generally what that means in the real world is "a bunch of people who fantasize about terrorism, but generally never get around to it", or "a bunch of sick people who pretend to have a meaning to what they are doing but really just like hanging together".

I linked this article earlier, but I'd like to quote a bit, since what we know so far seems to go nicely with what was written here.

For example, several of the 9/11 hijackers planned to fight in Chechnya, but they didn't have the right paperwork so they attacked America instead. The mujahedeen had no idea whom they would attack after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, so they sat around until they came up with a new enemy: America. Pakistani terrorists regularly defect to another terrorist group with a totally different political platform. Many new al-Qaida members say, unconvincingly, that they decided to become a jihadist after reading an extreme, anti-American blog, or after converting to Islam, sometimes just a few weeks before. These people know little about politics or Islam, and they frankly don't even seem to care much about learning more. The blogs they turn to don't have a lot of substance in these areas, even though more informative blogs do exist.

Now, it could still turn out that these guys are a part of the minority and not as clueless as terrorists generally are, but based on the their background, I would consider it unlikely.

In other words, calling them islamist extremists is really giving them too much credit and more likely than not the talk about "sleeper cells" is an unnecessary mystification of what could just as well be called "a bunch of sick murderous f***s and their cheerleaders".

The article Schneir is referring to is from Max Abrahms, and can currently be found here, and it gives what I think is really the best explanation as to "why do people do it".

...case studies of al-Qaida, Aum Shinrikyo, Hezbollah, the IRA, the RAF, the Weather Underground, and Chechen and Palestinian terrorist groups have concluded that most of the terrorists in these groups participated in the armed struggle to improve their relationships with other terrorists or to reduce their sense of alienation from society, usually both. These studies emphasize that social bonds preceded ideological commitment, which was an effect, not a cause, of becoming a terrorist member.

Obviously groups like this are dangerous, but I think too much is made of their political and religious connections.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by PIMking

They also had the kid cornered and somehow he was able to get through their barricade

It doesn't appear that he was ever inside their perimeter. There was a shootout, he fled, dropped the vehicle and then ran. Authorities made a best guess estimate as to how far he could have travelled and set up a perimiter around the area. Unfortunately, the suspect was one block outside that perimeter by the time they got one set up. Even at that, it would have been impossible for him to move during daylight. And he was dying.

Someone else asked if this was a template for other terror groups to learn from. So what lessons are there?

1) It's not that difficult to cause mass casualties on a 26.2 mile major marathon course with hundreds of thousands of spectators. Or a parade probably. The sheer size of the venue makes it impossible to defend completely. A far better soft target than a stadium.

2) A major running event has tons of cameras zeroed in on it. That's a benefit if you're trying to bring awareness to your cause. Its a drawback if you intend to escape and strike again.

3) If other people are running away in surprised panic, don't walk away calmly as if you knew that explosion was going to happen.

4) If you plan to get away and strike again, don't wear a distinctive white hat and clothes with logos on them. Don't follow in close proximity to each other. Disguise your true facial features. Assume there will be video of you dropping the bag and walking away.

5) If you're not going to martyr yourself, be prepared in advance to relocate with new identities at a moments notice in case the cops actually figure out who you are.

5) Should you really keep all your bombs and weapons in your own apartment?

I'm sure other terror groups will find this episode interesting given the immense press it received and the reaction it created across America.

Cowperson

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

It doesn't appear that he was ever inside their perimeter. There was a shootout, he fled, dropped the vehicle and then ran. Authorities made a best guess estimate as to how far he could have travelled and set up a perimiter around the area. Unfortunately, the suspect was one block outside that perimeter by the time they got one set up. Even at that, it would have been impossible for him to move during daylight. And he was dying.

Actually, I believe the Johkar was inside the perimeter and then later escaped. Cops noted that after he drove 4-5 blocks he ran and waited somewhere outside for a while (within perimeter), denoted by pools of blood found, indicating he was there for a while, and then he later made it further to the boat just outside the perimeter.

[jschick88]

Massachusetts State Police released a video on Sunday purporting to show the hiding place of suspected Boston bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

http://www.boston.com/news/source/20...l_imaging.html

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Great news that this kid can speak. Clearly he is easily persuaded, I bet the FBI knows a lot more on how to work with these types of people and are able to convince him to provide information about those that basically ruined his life and and affected so many others.

I don't see it as him needing to be persuaded.

It's very unlikely that, even if he is involved in a more widespread 'terror organization' that he would even be able to provide any information that would help investigators or hurt his cause. This is due to the cell nature of these organizations. The left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing. Sure it might result in 1 or 2 arrests/convictions, but nothing spectactular.

Right now, he is wanting to make sure whatever cause his brother died for gets the attention he thinks it deserves.

I have no doubt he will fall all over himself to tell his story. It's kind of sad though, because the best thing that could happen is he gets put in a box and the public never hears from him again.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by Itse

The article Schneir is referring to is from Max Abrahms, and can currently be found here, and it gives what I think is really the best explanation as to "why do people do it".

Obviously groups like this are dangerous, but I think too much is made of their political and religious connections.

You may have read Eric Hoffer's The True Believer written in 1955
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

This was compulsory reading back in the day and pretty much says it all on the topic. Fundamentally, I agree that too much is made of religious/political affiliation and that gives people like this too much credit.

Here are a couple of key ideas from the book and having met people like this, in my experience its mostly true.

"Feeling their lives are "irredeemably spoiled" and believing there is no hope for advancement or satisfaction as an individual, true believers seek "self-renunciation". Thus, such people are ripe to participate in a movement that offers the option of subsuming their individual lives in a larger collective"

"All mass movements are competitive" and perceive the supply of converts as zero-sum; and "all mass movements are interchangeable".[

[Senator Clay Davis]

Too bad none of the victims could have called their families before being killed

The mother of the Boston bombing suspects spoke to her eldest son minutes before a violent standoff with police in the streets of Watertown, Mass., she told ABC News.

Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, called his mother early Friday morning, alerting her that police were following him and his younger brother and that there had been a shooting.

"'The police, they have started shooting at us, they are chasing us,'" Zubeidat Tsarnaeva told ABC News in a telephone interview.

The conversation ended when Tsarnaev said, "'Mama, I love you,'" his mother said.

Tsarnaeva got frightened and started to cry and shout. He told her Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, was with him before the line cut off.

http://gma.yahoo.com/bombing-suspect...opstories.html

This has to be my least favourite part of these things, the humanization of the suspect attempts by the media.