[PGT] Flames beat Detroit 3-2.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by moon

The difference between drafting 1/2/3 over 5/6/7 certainly helped the Penguins and Hawks win Cups and multiple losing seasons didn't seem to hurt those two teams or the Kings in terms of constructing winners.

I don't think anyone has said that drafting high is the only way to build a team but since this team is drafting high no matter what it seems that it is better to draft the better players and get elite talent when making those draft picks.

Like I said, and like you so typically ignored: Top to bottom. The Penguins with Crosby and Malkin and the Hawks with Toews and Kane would be right where the Oilers are if they managed their organizations in the same "lose lots, draft high, assume success" strategy Edmonton has and some Flames fans want.

[stanleycup1989]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It wasn't the GM and President that were on the ice Saturday night, completely unable or unwilling to give any kind of push-back against the pesky young Flames who embarrassed them when they totally needed and desperately wanted to win.

Losing is a habit. So is winning.

Flames won two meaningless games at the end of last year to move down in the draft. Those wins did not help this year. The Toronto Blue Jays win lots of meaningless games at the end of each season after they do their September call ups, but the next season the losing returns. Winning meaningless games at the end of a season when the pressure is off quite often does not instill a winning attitude for the next season.

[Enoch Root]

For those of you who are angered or annoyed with the Flames because they won, what would you have them do?

They had Carson, Hanowski, Horak, Reinhart, Begin, Jackman, Baertschi and Butler in the lineup

They were oushot 38-17 or something to that effect. Would you have them lie down on the ice and just give the other team the win? Should they put Cervenka in net?

Wtf do you expect them to do?

I would never, ever want to see the kids not trying to win.

Also, the other teams in the 'race' are going to win a game or two as well, along the way. So just relax.

Third, fourth, fifth... it will work itself out.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by stanleycup1989

Flames won two meaningless games at the end of last year to move down in the draft. Those wins did not help this year. The Toronto Blue Jays win lots of meaningless games at the end of each season after they do their September call ups, but the next season the losing returns. Winning meaningless games at the end of a season when the pressure is off quite often does not instill a winning attitude for the next season.

No it doesn't.

But asking the kids to lose sure as hell will instill a losing attitude

[stanleycup1989]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Like I said, and like you so typically ignored: Top to bottom. The Penguins with Crosby and Malkin and the Hawks with Toews and Kane would be right where the Oilers are if they managed their organizations in the same "lose lots, draft high, assume success" strategy Edmonton has and some Flames fans want.

If this was the third or fourth year of losing to draft high for the Flames, I would agree with you. This is finally season one of trying a new strategy towards making the playoffs again. To lose to draft high for a change seems like a good idea to try for me at least for this year.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No it doesn't.

But asking the kids to lose sure as hell will instill a losing attitude

Thank you.

Erick: what would you ask Feaster or Hartley to do, exactly?

[stanleycup1989]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No it doesn't.

But asking the kids to lose sure as hell will instill a losing attitude

Really? The new Flames are so fragile that losing 6 or 7 games will instill a losing attitude? Okay if you say so.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by stanleycup1989

Really? The new Flames are so fragile that losing 6 or 7 games will instill a losing attitude? Okay if you say so.

Not if they're trying to win. Again, would you have the coach say "hey guys, please don't try tonight." What does that do the culture in the room?

[ToraToraTora]

Originally Posted by stanleycup1989

Really? The new Flames are so fragile that losing 6 or 7 games will instill a losing attitude? Okay if you say so.

That doesn't make sense. You're calling up these kids who get a chance to make the big show, and then say, "well, go out there and show us what you can do...just dont try too hard".

These are professionals with a high level of compete and pride. You cant just turn that off, nor do you want to.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Like I said, and like you so typically ignored: Top to bottom. The Penguins with Crosby and Malkin and the Hawks with Toews and Kane would be right where the Oilers are if they managed their organizations in the same "lose lots, draft high, assume success" strategy Edmonton has and some Flames fans want.

I didn't ignore anything I just am not projecting the argument that you want everyone here to be making on them. I haven't seen anyone arguing that the Flames should be tanking for the next 3 years while horribly managing the roster like the Oilers. Wanting a high draft pick one year doesn't mean that people want to be the Oilers no matter how much you try and force that view on everyone with the lose this year view.

The Penguins would be nowhere near the Cup without Crosby but the other moves they made. Without Toews the Hawks do not win the Cup even with the other guys they had.

The fans want a high draft pick to go with solid moves to the other parts of the roster. Nobody wants a Oilers style horrible roster management, horrible coaching, horrible Gm style. Wanting a high draft pick one year doesn't come close to wanting that or developing that in the team.

[stanleycup1989]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Not if they're trying to win. Again, would you have the coach say "hey guys, please don't try tonight." What does that do the culture in the room?

There has supposedly been a culture of losing in the room for years when wins would have actually helped the team make the playoffs. Are you saying there has been no problem with the culture in the room for years, and the culture of losing would only be starting now if the players were asked to lose 6 or 7 games to end this season?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by moon

The difference between drafting 1/2/3 over 5/6/7 certainly helped the Penguins and Hawks win Cups and multiple losing seasons didn't seem to hurt those two teams or the Kings in terms of constructing winners.

I don't think anyone has said that drafting high is the only way to build a team but since this team is drafting high no matter what it seems that it is better to draft the better players and get elite talent when making those draft picks.

Comparing Calgarys situation to The Penguins is rediculous as finishing last and getting a Crosby isn't in the Flames cards no matter how badly we finish the season. Also we would have to be Oiler bad for multiple seasons to follow thte Penguins, again with no Crosby in the mix either. I remember how bad the penguins were, if people think the Flames are joke now, it's nothing compared to how bad Pittsburg was.

[automaton 3]

Kipper played great, and the Wings gave up 2 gift goals. Not sure what the Flames could have done much differently, other than not starting Kipper.

[Igottago]

If the Flames organization ever asked their players to deliberately lose, and the players actually did, I would pretty much destroy all of my Flames gear and go watch another sport. I can't understand how anyone would want to see that from any team in the league let alone their own team. Undermines the integrity of the sport completely.

Its understandable to want a high draft pick but to intentionally lose games in unacceptable. They have already iced a weak team -- they've won a few games, so be it. I'd rather draft 7th than know my team lost on purpose.

The NHL needs to fix its draft lottery so that there's no impetus for a team to lose when they are out of the playoff race.

[jammies]

You or I have no effect on the Flames whether you hope they win or lose, so the "rational" argument about hoping for losses is actually not rational at all. Therefore, I'd rather hope they always win because in my opinion, hoping for losses makes you a wanna-be loser.

[vilzeh]

Even the 1st year Crosby came in Penguins they ended up with 58 points or so in 82games, if I remember correctly, even though Crosby made over 100 points. That's how bad Penguins was.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by moon

The difference between drafting 1/2/3 over 5/6/7 certainly helped the Penguins and Hawks win Cups and multiple losing seasons didn't seem to hurt those two teams or the Kings in terms of constructing winners.

I don't think anyone has said that drafting high is the only way to build a team but since this team is drafting high no matter what it seems that it is better to draft the better players and get elite talent when making those draft picks.

Toews was a 3rd overall pick, and Chicago only got the number 1 overall pick because they won the lottert as the 5-spot.

The only top 5 pick on the Kings is Drew Doughty.

From a hockey perspective, losing can never become truly acceptable. Think of it like this; there is merit to doing a crappy job well. Whether it's landscaping, the mail room, warehouse, data processing, whatever. If you do the crappy jobs well, you develop the muscles and habits necessary to have success when you get to the better job.

It'd be nice to get the top pick. We'll still have a top 5 pick. The top 5 are really good.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by stanleycup1989

There has supposedly been a culture of losing in the room for years when wins would have actually helped the team make the playoffs. Are you saying there has been no problem with the culture in the room for years, and the culture of losing would only be starting now if the players were asked to lose 6 or 7 games to end this season?

If it were the same old group of bums around out there, you might have a point. A bunch of kids and Kipper just beat a Red Wings team in the midst of a dogfight for the playoffs. That's matters.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Again Duhatschek also addressed winning at garbage time as futile. He said it's been proven that winning without pressure rarely translates to winning under pressure. It doesn't build character or winning habits that translate into a team that wins in the clutch. This isn't just a bunch of 'Oiler fan wannabes' hoping their team becomes losers. It's fans looking past the end of what's been a terrible season for this organization and looking at how this team can avoid a repeat which is by bringing in the best talent possible. This is logic and past history dictating that there is nothing redeeming about bad teams winning games at this time of the year as it actually hurts the proposition of winning in the future.

I said it last night and Duhatschek repeated this morning that last nights game was unfortunate in that you want to get those bounces in games that count. Simply an unfortunate evening.

What would you differently if you were the Flames? This question is actually for everyone here - If you think they're screwing up on a high draft pick what would you do differently? If you think they need to instill a winning attitude what would you do differently?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by stanleycup1989

There has supposedly been a culture of losing in the room for years when wins would have actually helped the team make the playoffs. Are you saying there has been no problem with the culture in the room for years, and the culture of losing would only be starting now if the players were asked to lose 6 or 7 games to end this season?

So now your argument is that there was already a culture of losing, so they might as well keep it up?

Unbelievable.

Again, it has been asked several times already: what would you have them do? Are you actually suggesting that the players should try to lose? If they asked the players to lose, the NHL would discipline them (deservedly so) and the punishment would quite possibly be their first round pick.