[Signing] Flames sign Ben Hanowski (2 years, two-way ELC, AAV 900k)

[Cole436]

Anyone who subscribes to scouts and rankings as the end all be all, needs to only look at this.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Cole436

Anyone who subscribes to scouts and rankings as the end all be all, needs to only look at this.

Scouting has also come along way since then, it's now impossible to find a great prospect that nobody knows about (Detroit anyone?) or to have a player pimped up on a pedestal to be picked high that are brutal (Steve Kelly, Terry Ryan, Josh Holden...etc)

It would be very rare to see these type of mistakes by the ISS, CSS or even Craig "friken" Button these days.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by May 25, 1989

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...126938&page=10

According to fotze's post 10 in Roman Horak was the Rangers 14th best prospect when acquired. Maybe we should wait to see how the kid plays and develops before getting hung up on arbitrary organizational rankings.

Horak was 19 when that list was compiled (just turned 20 nine days before the trade), Hanowski at 22 is much better known quantity at that age.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

Based on your posting history, how does that differ from the opinions you share? Do you see all of these players to make judgements about their ceilings and capabilities? Just seems strange to see you so critical of sharing their opinion of a player when that seems to be your bread and butter.

For the record, I have FSN Sports package and have seen all of the college players in question multiple times, not that that really means anything. You really can't tell anything about these guys until you see them against NHL players.

Yep I try and see players before I try to project them. If I've only seen them once I usually try to mention that and my projections are necessarily more vague and less definitive. Guys like Drouin and MacKinnon I've seen at least 5-6 times this year. Some of the draft eligible guys I've only seen once at the Top Prospects game. Barkov I haven't really seen. Hanowski I haven't seen. Agostino I haven't seen. That is why I haven't put out any projections on those guys.

Whether someone's opinion of a player is worth anything is based on whether they've seen the player and how good they are at projecting players. We don't know whether the poster has even seen Hanowski, they refuse to answer my question about how many times they've seen him. We also don't know whether the poster is skilled at projecting young players.

Regardless of how many times they've seen Hanowski I still find the projection that he'll be a more consistent Glencross to be pretty ridiculous. What do you get when you have a more consistent Glencross? You get an Iginla. I'd be over the moon ecstatic if Hanowski basically replaces Iginla singlehandedly. I certainly think that to expect that is crazy and no information I've seen has suggested that Hanowski is the kind of top level, elite prospect that will turn into an Iginla type player.

Hopefully Hanowski turns out great for us. To state you have a "feeling" that he'll be a more consistent Glencross without telling us why you "feel" that way is asking for us to disregard your opinion because you've provided no reason, logic or basis for us to give that opinion any credence at all.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by T@T

Scouting has also come along way since then, it's now impossible to find a great prospect that nobody knows about (Detroit anyone?) or to have a player pimped up on a pedestal to be picked high that are brutal (Steve Kelly, Terry Ryan, Josh Holden...etc)

It would be very rare to see these type of mistakes by the ISS, CSS or even Craig "friken" Button these days.

Prospects surprise all the time. And first rounders bust all the time. From 2003-2009 here's the number of impact players that have come out of the third round and later.


Kris Letang
Jonathan Quick
Cody Franson
Keith Yandle
Darren Helm
Alex Edler
Johan Franzen
Mikael Grabovski
Kris Versteeg
Pekke Rinne
Mark Streit
Alex Picard
Kyle Quincey
Mark Methot
Tobias Ernstrom
Dustin Byfuglien
Steve Mason
Brad Marchand
Cal Clutterbuck
James Reimer
Jamie Benn
Carl Gunnarsson
Adam Henrique
Braden Holtby
T.J. Brodie
Andres Lindback
Codie Eakin
Marcus Foligno
Roman Horak


Here's a list of first round, top 15 busts from those same years.

Cam Barker
Robert Nilsson
Lauri Tukonen
A.J Thelsen
Marek Zagrapan
Sasha Pokulok
Riku Helenius
Jiri Tlusty
Alex Plante
Kyle Beach
Colten Teubert
Zach Boychuk
Scott Glennie
Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson
Al Montoya
Boris Valabik
James Sheppard
Gilbert Brule
Brian Lee
Thomas Hickey
Zach Hamill
Nikita Filatov
Josh Bailey


Hasn't changed. Yes, European scouting has become much better, so the Red Wings can't pull out their European talent, but player scouting never has been a science. Outside of the top 5, it almost has always been a crap shoot.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by T@T

Scouting has also come along way since then, it's now impossible to find a great prospect that nobody knows about (Detroit anyone?) or to have a player pimped up on a pedestal to be picked high that are brutal (Steve Kelly, Terry Ryan, Josh Holden...etc)

It would be very rare to see these type of mistakes by the ISS, CSS or even Craig "friken" Button these days.

I have to disagree. I think more money is spent these days and thus the coverage is better. But there are still guys out there that some teams see and other teams miss. There can be more information than before about psychology of players and such and yet it still remains an art, not an exact science. Scouting is about opinions and projection and still very much relies on how good the scouts are at evaluating talent and projecting it. And even if you are good at that you are still dealing with developing young men who end up getting exposed to money, liquor, drugs, etc early in the their pro careers. How they handle that can't always be anticipated.

I don't think its impossible for teams to find a guy that almost no other team knows about. Nor do I think it impossible for guys to be picked high that end up busting. In fact we still see that somewhat frequently.

I think what has improved more than scouting is the overall depth of players in the draft. The 90's and early 2000's had a lot of weak drafts. It wasn't due to scouting IMO but instead due to the number of elite athletes across the world playing the sport.

[getbak]

I might be concerned that giving Hanowski a cup of coffee in Calgary this year was some sort of face-saving move from Feaster, trying to make the return for Iginla seem better, if it wasn't something that many other teams do every year.

Last year, the Rangers were second overall and still found a spot for Chris Kreider right after he won the NCAA Championship with BC. This year, the likely President's Trophy winner signed the undrafted Hobey Baker winner within hours of the award being announced and he's listed on their active roster right now. The Wings signed DeKeyser right after his season ended and have played him in five games so far. The list goes on and on and no one criticizes the other teams for those moves.


Hanowski was the captain of a Frozen Four team (and teammate of the Hobey winner), and bringing him to Calgary doesn't burn an AHL recall or cost anything other than some minor negotiating flexibility when he becomes an RFA. This is a move the Flames would have done whether he was acquired in the Iginla trade, or a Flames' draft pick, or an undrafted free-agent.


I just hope people don't freak out and start with the "I told you so"s in October when Hanowski starts the season in the AHL (which he almost certainly will). That's just another thing that's to be expected. Hell, even the darling of the Rangers' playoffs last year, Kreider, has played fewer regular season games for the Rangers this year than he did for them in the playoffs last year.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by getbak

I might be concerned that giving Hanowski a cup of coffee in Calgary this year was some sort of face-saving move from Feaster, trying to make the return for Iginla seem better, if it wasn't something that many other teams do every year.

I agree. And there's really not much to lose at this point.

Originally Posted by getbak

Last year, the Rangers were second overall and still found a spot for Chris Kreider right after he won the NCAA Championship with BC. This year, the likely President's Trophy winner signed the undrafted Hobey Baker winner within hours of the award being announced and he's listed on their active roster right now. The Wings signed DeKeyser right after his season ended and have played him in five games so far. The list goes on and on and no one criticizes the other teams for those moves.

Just playing a bit of devil's advocate here. The Rangers actually did receive criticism for signing Kreider and burning a year off his ELC. With that said, I don't think Kreider is a comparable because he was at the time a highly regarded first round pick and the Rangers were desperate for a skilled forward so might as well give Kreider a shot was the thinking. As for DeKeyser, my guess is that Detroit guaranteed DeKeyser some playing time in order to get him to sign.

Originally Posted by getbak

This is a move the Flames would have done whether he was acquired in the Iginla trade, or a Flames' draft pick, or an undrafted free-agent.

Yep. At this point, might as well give Hanowski a trial and plan for the future.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yep I try and see players before I try to project them. If I've only seen them once I usually try to mention that and my projections are necessarily more vague and less definitive. Guys like Drouin and MacKinnon I've seen at least 5-6 times this year. Some of the draft eligible guys I've only seen once at the Top Prospects game. Barkov I haven't really seen. Hanowski I haven't seen. Agostino I haven't seen. That is why I haven't put out any projections on those guys.

Whether someone's opinion of a player is worth anything is based on whether they've seen the player and how good they are at projecting players. We don't know whether the poster has even seen Hanowski, they refuse to answer my question about how many times they've seen him. We also don't know whether the poster is skilled at projecting young players.

Regardless of how many times they've seen Hanowski I still find the projection that he'll be a more consistent Glencross to be pretty ridiculous. What do you get when you have a more consistent Glencross? You get an Iginla. I'd be over the moon ecstatic if Hanowski basically replaces Iginla singlehandedly. I certainly think that to expect that is crazy and no information I've seen has suggested that Hanowski is the kind of top level, elite prospect that will turn into an Iginla type player.

Hopefully Hanowski turns out great for us. To state you have a "feeling" that he'll be a more consistent Glencross without telling us why you "feel" that way is asking for us to disregard your opinion because you've provided no reason, logic or basis for us to give that opinion any credence at all.

I have no clue where the Hanowski comparisons to Glenncross have come from. Bonkers. I don't see a resemblance at all. I've been lucky enough to PVR all the NCAA playoff games for St Cloud & Yale which have been broadcast on ESPN here in the UK. I compared Agostino to Glenncross a couple of weeks back after watching Agostino for the first time after the trade. Kenny is very quick & gets into all the dirty areas. Great motor. Hanowski isn't really a speedster, but he'll make a great character guy. Probably in the AHL.

[IgiTang]

Nope hes gonna be the next Jarome Iginla mixed with some Mark Messier and a hint of Dougie Gilmour.

We shall call him Jarome the Moose Killer!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cole436

Prospects surprise all the time. And first rounders bust all the time. From 2003-2009 here's the number of impact players that have come out of the third round and later.



Hasn't changed. Yes, European scouting has become much better, so the Red Wings can't pull out their European talent, but player scouting never has been a science. Outside of the top 5, it almost has always been a crap shoot.

Not to change the subject, but this is precisely why when drafting, you need to take the BPA and not draft for position. It's too hard to know who will surprise and who will bust, so always go with the best chance.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

According to Pens beat writer for the Tribune review Josh Yohe neither Hanowski nor Agostino were in Pens top ten prospect list. I know you will discredit that but frankly I don't care. I don't care much either because in grand scheme of things Hanowski will probably not matter much, but as I said, it raises a few flags for me at least.

Is there really a point in arguing whether Hanowski or Agopstino were in Pens' top ten prospect list? Plain and simple, they weren't considered top prospects in Penguins' organization. Let's be real, there's no doubt in my mind that neither Hanowski nor Agostino were in the Pens' top 5 prospect list and it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't considered in Pens' top ten by Pens fans.

Obviously it is all subjective and it depends on whom you considered a prospect and whom you considered to have graduated, but at the start of the season there's no doubt that Despres, Bennett, Morrow, Pouliot, and Maatta were ahead of Hanowski and Agostino. It would be utterly stupid to rank Hanowski and Agostino above those guys. In fact, if any of those 5 guys were a Flames prospect they would slot right in with Sven and Jankowski as the Flames' top 3 prospects.

After those five, I think a lot of people would rank Bortuzzo, Dumoulin, and Harrington ahead of Hanowski and Agostino and I personally would rank it that way.

The reality is that Hanowski and Agostino aren't considered blue chip or great prospects and the Penguins had some serious prospect depth at the start of the year.

[Badgers Nose]

If you want two players to go with that 1st round pick these two were the best you were ever going to get. So who cares how good they are? They are better than nothing, right? In a team light on prospects Feaster did well.

If I am broke and someone gives me a couple of lottery tickets I might prefer cash, but the tickets are better than nothing.

[edslunch]

What pisses me off is how do consistent contenders like Pittsburgh and Boston have such deep prospect pools compared to the Flames. Such piss poor drafting and development and in some cases luck

Edit: and poor asset management

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yep I try and see players before I try to project them. If I've only seen them once I usually try to mention that and my projections are necessarily more vague and less definitive. Guys like Drouin and MacKinnon I've seen at least 5-6 times this year. Some of the draft eligible guys I've only seen once at the Top Prospects game. Barkov I haven't really seen. Hanowski I haven't seen. Agostino I haven't seen. That is why I haven't put out any projections on those guys.

Whether someone's opinion of a player is worth anything is based on whether they've seen the player and how good they are at projecting players. We don't know whether the poster has even seen Hanowski, they refuse to answer my question about how many times they've seen him. We also don't know whether the poster is skilled at projecting young players.

Regardless of how many times they've seen Hanowski I still find the projection that he'll be a more consistent Glencross to be pretty ridiculous. What do you get when you have a more consistent Glencross? You get an Iginla. I'd be over the moon ecstatic if Hanowski basically replaces Iginla singlehandedly. I certainly think that to expect that is crazy and no information I've seen has suggested that Hanowski is the kind of top level, elite prospect that will turn into an Iginla type player.

Hopefully Hanowski turns out great for us. To state you have a "feeling" that he'll be a more consistent Glencross without telling us why you "feel" that way is asking for us to disregard your opinion because you've provided no reason, logic or basis for us to give that opinion any credence at all.

Haha, wow you need to let it go sir. Who cares what a user posts about what he thinks Hanowski projects to. Unless you're Feaster using this forum for reassurance that you picked the right player or perhaps trade him because the fan base think's he'll never make the NHL. This is a discussion forum, if you have to disregard someone's 'feeling' because it's not yours then skip ahead to the next post. Or wait 10 more mins until everything previously posted in this thread is completely irrelevant to you.

[neo45]

Any word on what # he is going to wear?

[FlameZilla]

There was a Penguins poster who came and visited after the trade and gave us his assessment on these two prospects. He thought Agostino and Hanowski were Pittsburgh's 2nd & 3rd best forward prospects respectively. He went on to say that was more of an indicator that their forward prospect pool is rather poor.

It's going to be the fashion amongst certain types of fans and journalists to claim that these are nobodies with absolutely no potential, and that is simply because of the superstar who they were traded for. There will be spin doctors who are happy to scrutinise the return for Iggy & at every opportunity will scream from the rooftops "SEE, WE'VE BEEN FLEECED!!!!"

Say what you will about their upsides (or supposed lack thereof) but what we have acquired are 2 forward prospects who are much further along in their development than anyone we have in the pipeline. Within a year both will be pro hockey players either in the AHL or NHL, and one of them is the leading scorer on an NCAA championship team.

[theg69]

Originally Posted by Cole436

Prospects surprise all the time. And first rounders bust all the time. From 2003-2009 here's the number of impact players that have come out of the third round and later.


Kris Letang
Jonathan Quick
Cody Franson
Keith Yandle
Darren Helm
Alex Edler
Johan Franzen
Mikael Grabovski
Kris Versteeg
Pekke Rinne
Mark Streit
Alex Picard
Kyle Quincey
Mark Methot
Tobias Ernstrom
Dustin Byfuglien
Steve Mason
Brad Marchand
Cal Clutterbuck
James Reimer
Jamie Benn
Carl Gunnarsson
Adam Henrique
Braden Holtby
T.J. Brodie
Andres Lindback
Codie Eakin
Marcus Foligno
Roman Horak


Here's a list of first round, top 15 busts from those same years.

Cam Barker
Robert Nilsson
Lauri Tukonen
A.J Thelsen
Marek Zagrapan
Sasha Pokulok
Riku Helenius
Jiri Tlusty
Alex Plante
Kyle Beach
Colten Teubert
Zach Boychuk
Scott Glennie
Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson
Al Montoya
Boris Valabik
James Sheppard
Gilbert Brule
Brian Lee
Thomas Hickey
Zach Hamill
Nikita Filatov
Josh Bailey


Hasn't changed. Yes, European scouting has become much better, so the Red Wings can't pull out their European talent, but player scouting never has been a science. Outside of the top 5, it almost has always been a crap shoot.

Sorry to nitpick and I completely agree with your point, but I would argue that Tlusty hasn't been a bust, he has 19 goals and 29 points this season already and would be leading the Flames in scoring. With our drafting record, I would be happy if we can find a player like him in the middle of the 1st round...

[sureLoss]

Playing tonight in the Wild game per Millions

[Buff]

Must remember to set PVR.