Emergence of the young guys

[FlameZilla]

Can't wait to beat the Coilers tonight. Screw our draft position.

[DeZoE]

Originally Posted by devo22

Gillies had a fantastic freshman year at college. Brossoit has been excellent in the WHL. Ramo has probably been the best goalie in the KHL for some years now. Don't know too much about Berra yet, but I'm hearing good things from my friends in Switzerland. And Ortio has been good in Finland this year. Goalies are always difficult to project, but I'd say the Flames have a nice group of goalie prospects right now.

Forgot about Ramo.Why is he not here tho? I understand goalies take longer to mature. Do you think Ramo comes over next year? He does have potential to be a number one.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by DeZoE

Forgot about Ramo.Why is he not here tho? I understand goalies take longer to mature. Do you think Ramo comes over next year? He does have potential to be a number one.

More than likely he is the #1 goalie next year for the flames.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by DeZoE

Forgot about Ramo.Why is he not here tho? I understand goalies take longer to mature. Do you think Ramo comes over next year? He does have potential to be a number one.

His KHL contract runs until June I believe. No doubt he'll come over in summer and challenge for the #1 spot.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by DeZoE

Alright, this is a start. I'm wondering tho who the "large pool of talented goalie prospects" are tho. I agree with the vets. Keeping Glencross is key. What do you do with Cammy tho? Tanguay? Who are the untouchables in the off season and what kind of signings do you make? Do you try to improve for next season or do you tank at least one year and then see where you're at?

This is why you received backlash.

We are keeping Glencross, that is not a question.

Its been stated over and over again, that Tanguay and Cammy are currently auditioning for a roll as vet. leaders to influance the kids.

Ramo, Berra, Gillies, Brosoitt are our stable of young goaltenders with high upside.

The untouchables are Brodie, Backlund, Glencross, Giordano. And probably all prospect unless they can be replaced by antoher prospect.

If you don't know what your talking about don't talk.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by #-3

This is why you received backlash.

We are keeping Glencross, that is not a question.

Its been stated over and over again, that Tanguay and Cammy are currently auditioning for a roll as vet. leaders to influance the kids.

Ramo, Berra, Gillies, Brosoitt are our stable of young goaltenders with high upside.

The untouchables are Brodie, Backlund, Glencross, Giordano. And probably all prospect unless they can be replaced by antoher prospect.

If you don't know what your talking about don't talk.

He is asking a question, don't be a ######.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by DeZoE

You people seem to think this is a pissing match between the oilers and the flames. It's not. I'm not here to say my team is better then yours. We aren;t in the playoffs and at this rate we might not be next year either. For those of you who can comprehend a sentence, I am asking you why you're not much more upset with management then you let on or if you think the current management group is capable of bringing you to the promised land. Please, if you have nothing intelligent to say then by all means, keep it to yourself.

Why didn't the Oiler fans come out with pitchforks after your team's management fail to take the Oilers to the promise land? Many of us wanted a rebuild. Many of us who didn't, still grudgingly see that a rebuild is the most logical path right now. Flames have made a lot of moves in order to try and rebuild in a competitive environment - that obviously failed, but a rebuild is what we are in the midst of now.

As for comparing the Oilers' rebuild to that of the Flames', you are comparing apples to oranges.

I don't mean to disrespect your team up there, but what happened to all those OTHER picks besides the first-overalls? I think Eberle is pretty damn good, and he was a late first rounder, but your team failed because their scouting and/or development team failed. There simply wasn't enough in the pipeline coming in to turn your franchise around.

Flames... they don't have high-end blue-chip prospects other than Baertschi. You can count Gaudreau and Jankowski if you want - some of us do, some of us don't. If they make it, they will be impact players.

What the Flames do is have a lot of depth in the prospect base. Guys with size, guys with some skill, guys with leadership abilities and character, guys with good two-way play, etc. Definitely nothing to build your team around, but definitely something to support the rebuild through the future.

Where was your Backlund in your rebuild? Where was your Brodie? Where was your Giordano? Your Glencross? Yes, you had Hemsky. Horcoff, as horrible of a contract he does have, does carry some worth to your team, but something stinks about that leadership there. Hall seems to be a much more competitive spirit than Horcoff.

Please list down all your prospects that are either NHL solid players now (aside from your over-alls + Eberle - which is nothing to sneeze at, don't get me wrong) but list your other low first rounders, your 2nd rounders, and so forth. Lander? Hartikainen? Neither of them seem like they are NHL capable thus far. Who else?

That is the difference there between the Flames' rebuild, and the Oilers' rebuild. Though the Flames are definitely missing the 'sure-fire blue-chip' prospects the likes of the Oilers', the Flames are a step ahead of the Oilers from the onset of the rebuild. What did the Oilers START with for prospects and NHL players?

Your management team didn't see the rebuild coming, and kind of 'fell into it'. That is fine. At some point they recognized a rebuild was needed. Compare your roster at that moment after the first year of 'rebuild trades', and compare that of the Flames. Then compare the initial prospect base. Flames are NOT one of the deeper prospect bases, that's for sure - but the Flames DO have more depth, talent and POSSIBILITIES than the Oilers DID at the start of their rebuild.

Most of the fans here don't think this is going to be a 1 year rebuild. Nobody (outside of perhaps a couple overly-optimistic dreamers) think this is going to be a 1-year rebuild. 2-3 is more likely, and if things go wrong, then we fall into Oiler territory of terrible.

Flames have a better scouting department in my opinion. Go through the prospect base, and look to see what types the Flames are drafting or acquiring.
- High Hockey IQ
- 2-way Players
- Captains or leaders
- A mix of size and skill

Now look back at your drafting history - and think outside of the top picks. Your top picks are really wonderful - nobody is going to say they stink. It is what you do to supplement those picks - and the Oilers haven't been able to do that 'easier' step - getting good depth, grit, and leadership abilities. You guys DEFINITELY have the talent, but you don't have much else. That is why your rebuild has been taking a long time.

Flames will not last as long as the Oilers in the basement for 2 reasons:
1) There is a PUSH to not do that. Edmonton's owner and management seem rather complacent to me (outsider looking in, but that is what it seems like, especially based on the lack of veteran acquisitions)
2) Oilers started off with next to nothing in their prospect depth, and without a good leadership or core of supporting players to help shoulder the burden, especially on Defence. Flames seem to have more of those pieces than the Oilers did, no?

It is really only a matter of time before your management team FINALLY loses patience. Perhaps the Oilers' fans finally lose patience and stop selling out, forcing your management team to do something, or forcing the Katz to change management. Whatever happens, your Oilers' team will eventually become at the very least a decent team - just too much talent for that not to happen. Just has been a waste for your team thus far not taking advantage of the ELCs.

Just because that has happened to your team, it does NOT mean that it will happen to the Flames. I can't really name another team off the top of my head that has been in a rebuild for that long, in a salary-cap world, who supposedly has an owner that wants to win and will spend to that cap. I think the Oilers are the EXCEPTION to the rebuilding rule, not the standard.

Flames could very well screw it up as badly as your Oilers - but statistically, it will be an anomaly. Name another cap-spending team that has languished at the bottom of the standings for so long during a rebuild? Go ahead, name me one example OTHER than yourselves?

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Don't see how Brodie could get anything other than an A+ this year. Yes he has made mistakes, but he was a fourth round pick. Right now he is playing a top 2 role. I have no idea what more he could have done this year given who he is and the limitations that he has.

I would give him an A- or B+ simply because, for an offensive defenceman playing the minutes he has played I think his statistics aren't that great. Prorated over an 82 game season T.J. would have 2 goals, 18 points & would be -22. I'm high on the guy for sure, but if we start calling that kind of season an 'A+' we're in big trouble.

As with Backlund & Baertschi, the quality performances are there but the numbers/results aren't there.

[saillias]

Not gonna quote that massive post, but I have to say I disagree with you all around. We have no leadership. There is no one on this team I want wearing the C. Hell after last night's game I'm ready to give it to Reinhart which is pretty sad. Oilers had plenty of good prospects. They fizzled. And if you want to make direct comparisons player by player they had a Gagner or Cogliano to our Backlund and guys like Pitkanen to Brodie.

At the current rate we're right on the same trajectory until we get some competent management IMO

[devo22]

Originally Posted by saillias

Not gonna quote that massive post, but I have to say I disagree with you all around. We have no leadership. There is no one on this team I want wearing the C. Hell after last night's game I'm ready to give it to Reinhart which is pretty sad. Oilers had plenty of good prospects. They fizzled. And if you want to make direct comparisons player by player they had a Gagner or Cogliano to our Backlund and guys like Pitkanen to Brodie.

At the current rate we're right on the same trajectory until we get some competent management IMO

he was talking about leadership of the prospects, not of the current Flames group. And he is right, you'll find numerous prospects in our systems that are/were captains or assistant captains and/or good character guys.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

I would give him an A- or B+ simply because, for an offensive defenceman playing the minutes he has played I think his statistics aren't that great. Prorated over an 82 game season T.J. would have 2 goals, 18 points & would be -22. I'm high on the guy for sure, but if we start calling that kind of season an 'A+' we're in big trouble.

As with Backlund & Baertschi, the quality performances are there but the numbers/results aren't there.

But he is a 22 year old fourth round pick. This was a growing season for him. He went from being #7 on game one to a top 2 to close the year (not that I think he should remain a #2, but that is where he is). His stats might not be great, but for where he is in his development, that is a phenomenal year. To expect more is completely ridiculous. Next year, the expectations will be higher. But for this year, he was probably the biggest bright spot on the whole team and fully deserving of top praise.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by saillias

Not gonna quote that massive post, but I have to say I disagree with you all around. We have no leadership. There is no one on this team I want wearing the C. Hell after last night's game I'm ready to give it to Reinhart which is pretty sad. Oilers had plenty of good prospects. They fizzled. And if you want to make direct comparisons player by player they had a Gagner or Cogliano to our Backlund and guys like Pitkanen to Brodie.

At the current rate we're right on the same trajectory until we get some competent management IMO

Agreed on the 'C' thing - I don't see any real captains on this team.

However, I do see 2 things that the Oilers didn't have - able bodied veterans with decent leadership abilities.

VETS:
Giordano, Cammaleri, Wideman, Stajan (especially after being the 'whipping boy', he has overcome that adversity nicely), Stempniak, Hudler... These are all guys that play hard most nights. Glencross is 'pouty', but he will be very beneficial to have for helping to shoulder the load, as will Tanguay. Oilers had Hemsky (Tanguay), Horcoff (Stajan - at least this season), Penner and who? I think Flames are ahead there. Oilers gouged that team too deeply I think in their rebuild.

Young Roster Players:
Backlund = Gagner. I think Gagner was ahead of Backlund actually - brought more offence. Backlund brings a bigger body and way better defence. Pitkanen = Brodie. Fair. They also had Smid I think. Maybe a slight edge to the Oilers on that one, depending on how you see Horak, Byron and Bouma as 'young NHL guys' or still prospects. I view them as prospects.

Goalies:
Dubnyk I think has been getting better, and I actually think he is an ABOVE AVERAGE starter. Flames have a long list of 'solid' prospects, but unproven. Oilers didn't have much except for Khabi. Dubnyk doesn't have stats that blow any of the top 3 or 4 Flames' prospects out of the water, and he was their ONLY notable goalie prospect with upside. Flames are ahead there. Gillies, Brossoit, Ramo, Ortio and now Berra are all legitimate prospects. I would put Gillies at Dubnyk's level, Brossoit just a bit below, and there are 3 more pretty decent alternatives to balance that out with. Flames are DEFINITELY ahead of the curve on that one, no? Am I missing any notables from the Oilers' side?

Defensive prospects:
Flames have Breen, Kulak, Culkin, Wotherspoon, Seiloff, Ramage and Cundari. Who did the Oilers have? Jeff Petry, Theo Peckham, Taylor Chorney, Cody Wild, Alex Plante, and Johan Motin. Without comparing the list of of how the Oilers' prospects turned out, but rather how good and how much promised they showed in 2009 compared to what the Flames have NOW (which wouldn't be fair and would be disingenuous of me to do so), I think you still have to give the 'win' to the Flames there - and I don't even consider the Flames to have a really good Defensive prospect base.

Forward Prospects:
Eberle vs Baertschi - tough one to compare. Baertschi already has more NHL time, but Eberle is really good. Potential at that level? Tough to say. "Mr. Clutch" vs "Mr. WHL 2.0 GPG". I don't honestly know how to rank Eberle back then, to Baertschi now.

Gaudreau, Reinhart, Jankowski, Granlund, Arnold, Deblouw, Horak, Aliu, Bouma, Elson, Ferland, Hanowski, Agostino, Nemisz, Gordon and Byron vs Riley Nash, Rob Schremp, Linus Omark, Chris Vande Velde, Teemu Hartikainen, Ryan Potulny, Slava Trukno, Philippe Cornet, Jean-Francois Jacques, Liam Reddox, Ryan O'Marra and Ryan Stone. Go through their list of potential there and see how they measure up between the Oilers then, and the Flames now.

Conclusion:
Oilers were a very poor drafting team. Flames have been turning that around lately, though until they get more impact players in the lineup, that point is debatable.

This is my point. The Flames are AHEAD of the Oilers now compared to what the Oilers were when they suddenly found themselves at the bottom of the standings.

Then compare the Oilers to other bottom teams post '05, and you see the only ones that have really stayed there are teams that don't spend to the cap, which is why I say the Oilers are an anomaly in how long their rebuild is taking, compared to the rest of the league, and thus you can't really 'expect' the same thing to happen to the Flames.

It isn't a 'guarantee' that the Flames will be quicker, but the Oilers are really the 'worst case scenario', and I believe historically now the worst modern day team from that perspective, (Quebec challenging them years ago - but that was really in a tough time for Canadian teams, and in a league without parity) so why do people assume the Flames will match it?

[Calgary4LIfe]

^^ Sorry for the long posts... I know some people here can't stand them...

[The Swedish Flame]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I don't mean to disrespect your team up there

Besides this, I agree with almost everything else you said.

[$ven27]

One thing that I see said about Calgary ever since we've officially entered a rebuild, is that we'll continue spend while other rebuilding teams didn't, yet I really don't think it's true. What makes people think that as Calgary gets deeper into this rebuild that they'll still continue to spend? Colorado used to be big spenders, and now since they've entered a rebuild they don't, same with Dallas, and Edmonton used to be close to a cap team. It seems to be the natural cycle of rebuilding teams to not spend much money, then as they get better they spend more.

[FlameZilla]

Obviously we have a major problem with our lineup. Unless there is a major clear-out of veterans we're going to be stuck with essentially the same lineup next year. There's a conflict between this rebuilding/youth movement and the remnants of the failed 'win now' veteran squad. What I mean is that the players we have in the youth movement and the vets we have in contract essentially play the same roles.

With the prospects/young players we have currently on contract, going forward I think they have the potential to fill the following roles:

First line: ______ _______ ________
Second line: Baertschi Backlund _______
Third line: Horak Reinhart ______
Fourth line: Hanowski Bouma _______

1st pairing D: _____ _______
2nd pairing D: Brodie Wotherspoon
3rd pairing D: Kulak Cundari/Breen

Starter: _______
Backup: Brossoit/Ramo/Berra/Ortio

Veteran guys on the books include:

Tanguay, Cammalleri, Hudler, Stajan, Stempniak, Glenncross, Giordano, Wideman, Sarich, Butler, Smith & Jackman

And an all-veteran lineup would look like this:

Tanguay Cammalleri ________
Glenncross Stajan Stempniak
Hudler ______ _______
______ ______ Jackman

Giordano Wideman
Butler Sarich
Smith ______

Kipper (who knows... maybe)
______

In the organisation there is a logjam of 2nd line left-wingers: Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glenncross, Hudler & Baertschi. We have one capable 2nd line right winger in Stempniak. Stajan & Backlund are capable 2nd line centres. Giordano, Brodie, Wideman, Sarich, Butler and Smith are all 2nd or 3rd pairing D.

How the Hell are we ever going to balance out this lineup? Surely we can deal from the overloaded LW & LD positions to acquire some decent RW & C prospects, right?

[polak]

13 games and no goals and only one assist for Sven is very worrisome. I'm all for letting the guy grow and develop but he really needs to start putting up some points. Potential top players don't do that.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by polak

13 games and no goals and only one assist for Sven is very worrisome. I'm all for letting the guy grow and develop but he really needs to start putting up some points. Potential top players don't do that.

14 games, 2 goals and 2 assists... 7 games to go on the first line with Backs and Stempy. I think Sven might turn his season around.

And I take it all back about Brodie. A+ season for him based on that performance alone.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Obviously we have a major problem with our lineup. Unless there is a major clear-out of veterans we're going to be stuck with essentially the same lineup next year. There's a conflict between this rebuilding/youth movement and the remnants of the failed 'win now' veteran squad. What I mean is that the players we have in the youth movement and the vets we have in contract essentially play the same roles.

With the prospects/young players we have currently on contract, going forward I think they have the potential to fill the following roles:

First line: ______ _______ ________
Second line: Baertschi Backlund _______
Third line: Horak Reinhart ______
Fourth line: Hanowski Bouma _______

1st pairing D: _____ _______
2nd pairing D: Brodie Wotherspoon
3rd pairing D: Kulak Cundari/Breen

Starter: _______
Backup: Brossoit/Ramo/Berra/Ortio

Veteran guys on the books include:

Tanguay, Cammalleri, Hudler, Stajan, Stempniak, Glenncross, Giordano, Wideman, Sarich, Butler, Smith & Jackman

And an all-veteran lineup would look like this:

Tanguay Cammalleri ________
Glenncross Stajan Stempniak
Hudler ______ _______
______ ______ Jackman

Giordano Wideman
Butler Sarich
Smith ______

Kipper (who knows... maybe)
______

In the organisation there is a logjam of 2nd line left-wingers: Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glenncross, Hudler & Baertschi. We have one capable 2nd line right winger in Stempniak. Stajan & Backlund are capable 2nd line centres. Giordano, Brodie, Wideman, Sarich, Butler and Smith are all 2nd or 3rd pairing D.

How the Hell are we ever going to balance out this lineup? Surely we can deal from the overloaded LW & LD positions to acquire some decent RW & C prospects, right?

Combine the two to open next year. Some will likely get moved by next trade deadline.

First line: Tanguay Cammalleri Hudler
Second line: Baertschi Backlund Stempniak
Third line: Horak Reinhart Glencross
Fourth line: Bouma/Aliu Stajan Jackman/McGratton

Brodie Wideman
Butler Giordano
Sarich Cundari
Breen

Ramo
McDonald

We're not getting rid if everyone by next fall.

Then you have 1st, stl 1st, pit 1st, Jank, Gaudreau, Wotherpoon etc developing in their respective leagues next year.

That team gets us a top 10 maybe top 5 pick in 2014 draft. Trade whoever you can (vets) next trade deadline.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by devo22

he was talking about leadership of the prospects, not of the current Flames group. And he is right, you'll find numerous prospects in our systems that are/were captains or assistant captains and/or good character guys.

That's true of any NHL prospect pool I imagine. Even a complete NHL plug like Zack Stortini was the captain of his junior team. NHL prospects are the best players from the lower leagues so seeing a lot of assistants and captains is pretty likely.