Offseason - strategy of exploiting teams in cap trouble

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Dagger

He's having a down year, but he hasn't looked bad he just has nobody to play with but you can tell he's a cerebral player that knows how to play a puck possession game. Detroit fans miss him, he was a very useful player for them on the 2nd line.

His career year was 2008-09 where he got 57 points in 82 games (.7 PPG) and went back to Europe rather than play for 2.8M.

last year he had 50 pts in 81 games .62 PPG

This year 22 pts in 34 games is .65 PPG.

This is Hudler's second best season in his 9 year career... 30 years old next year.

This is the absolute best that can be expected from him.



Not worth 4M this year and definitely not worth 4M / year for the next 4 years.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Fire

Why would Richards do that? Too much risk and he could sign a short term 6+ million/yr deal if he wants.

Yeah, too much risk for him. Plus, who wants to be known as the guy who got bought out twice.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

His career year was 2008-09 where he got 57 points in 82 games (.7 PPG) and went back to Europe rather than play for 2.8M.

last year he had 50 pts in 81 games .62 PPG

This year 22 pts in 34 games is .65 PPG.

This is Hudler's second best season in his 9 year career... 30 years old next year.

This is the absolute best that can be expected from him.



Not worth 4M this year and definitely not worth 4M / year for the next 4 years.

Until the great tank job, Hudler was doing just great. I think you horribly overestimate the quality of player you are going to get for 4 mil as an UFA. Hudler has been a very solid 2nd liner, which is exactly what he's paid for.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

His career year was 2008-09 where he got 57 points in 82 games (.7 PPG) and went back to Europe rather than play for 2.8M.

last year he had 50 pts in 81 games .62 PPG

This year 22 pts in 34 games is .65 PPG.

This is Hudler's second best season in his 9 year career... 30 years old next year.

This is the absolute best that can be expected from him.



Not worth 4M this year and definitely not worth 4M / year for the next 4 years.

That seems to be what a 4M UFA player gets you...

[Calgary4LIfe]

I think offer-sheets are a terrible idea for this franchise. You have to over-pay, and it costs you picks. Flames need to allocate those picks for their drafting, not as part of an over-payment for someone. Offer-sheets rarely work unless it is an over-payment.

That 2nd round pick could be a high one too.

I think the only 2 ways you take advantage of another teams's cap space is as follows:
1) Offer higher money for an RFA, knowing the team wants to match, in order to force them to have cap issues. Blues are in trouble as they have a number of higher profile RFAs that will need raises, and divisional opponents could very well do this - think San Jose and Chicago with their offer-sheet not too long ago.

2) You take a bad contract in return for a pick/prospect.

I don't care how much a team is in 'cap jail' - they are NOT going to give up their young good players with potential. They will match and then buy out/trade other players to make room. You only do this to try and push them closer to the cap as an 'enemy' (and you will definitely make an enemy - not really worth it when the Flames will probably be in that predicament a 'x' number of seasons down the road). Competitors should definitely do this against other competitors - not a bottom team vs any other team.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

That seems to be what a 4M UFA player gets you...

Daniel Winnick 28 years old 6' 2" 210 19 pts this year 1.8 M for 2 years.

Brandon Prust Mtl 2.5 M 13 pts plus looking after linemate Galchenyuk getting 21 NHL points rather than playing against Baertschi in the AHL.

Brad Boyes NYI 1M 31 pts in 41 games... same age as Hudler better career stats

Direct comparison one dimensional (like Hudler) PA Parenteau 4M for 4 years 39 points in 41 games leading the Av's in scoring.


Other than Jokinen getting a 2 year deal for 4.5 M / yr and and the the Av's signing Jones for 4M you get more for less AND are not tied up for 5 years.

Maybe the Flames don't have to pay 4M to improve the team.

Wideman was the 5th largest contract given to a UFA last year. Hudler was #7.

Take out the looney contracts (this year only possible crazy big contract is Iginla) of Suter and Parise and the very best contracts given out will be in the Wideman/Hudler range.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Daniel Winnick 28 years old 6' 2" 210 19 pts this year 1.8 M for 2 years.

Brandon Prust Mtl 2.5 M 13 pts plus looking after linemate Galchenyuk getting 21 NHL points rather than playing against Baertschi in the AHL.

Brad Boyes NYI 1M 31 pts in 41 games... same age as Hudler better career stats

Direct comparison one dimensional (like Hudler) PA Parenteau 4M for 4 years 39 points in 41 games leading the Av's in scoring.


Other than Jokinen getting a 2 year deal for 4.5 M / yr and and the the Av's signing Jones for 4M you get more for less AND are not tied up for 5 years.

Maybe the Flames don't have to pay 4M to improve the team.

Wideman was the 5th largest contract given to a UFA last year. Hudler was #7.

Take out the looney contracts (this year only possible crazy big contract is Iginla) of Suter and Parise and the very best contracts given out will be in the Wideman/Hudler range.

You also have to take into account how the team as a whole did. The Flames and Canadiens' seasons were complete opposites.

Wideman you have a case for (even then you should compare to other players like Erhoff), but Hudler has been right about where he should be given the current state of the Flames.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

His career year was 2008-09 where he got 57 points in 82 games (.7 PPG) and went back to Europe rather than play for 2.8M.

last year he had 50 pts in 81 games .62 PPG

This year 22 pts in 34 games is .65 PPG.

This is Hudler's second best season in his 9 year career... 30 years old next year.

This is the absolute best that can be expected from him.



Not worth 4M this year and definitely not worth 4M / year for the next 4 years.

Really, what do you care how much a player gets paid, it's not your money. You can cherry pick certain players to prove your point but others can cherry pick worse examples to prove theirs. We all get it, you hate the player.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Really, what do you care how much a player gets paid, it's not your money. You can cherry pick certain players to prove your point but others can cherry pick worse examples to prove theirs. We all get it, you hate the player.

I don't hate Hudler.

He is a good player that just doesn't fit with the small Flame team and will not do well here or reach his potential so long as he is one of 6-7 small forwards.

Anyone getting paid more than 1M has basically won a lottery.

Hudler produces at a 2.8M level.... barely... as the Red wings were not that keen to pay him even that much.

The only reason he is a Flame is that they were willing to overpay him for his abilities more than any other team......

You do not believe that he would have chosen the Flames to play on because they had assembled a group of small skilled guys that had a lot in common with him and no one to go into the corners?

The reason I do not like having players getting paid more than they produce on the ice is that the resulting team sucks and does not make the playoffs year after year.


Are you happy that Bouwmeester made well over $22,000,000 while never contributing enough to get the flames into the top half of the league????


Sort of like admiring someone who wins a big lottery every year.

[showtime]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I don't hate Hudler.

He is a good player that just doesn't fit with the small Flame team and will not do well here or reach his potential so long as he is one of 6-7 small forwards.

Anyone getting paid more than 1M has basically won a lottery.

Hudler produces at a 2.8M level.... barely... as the Red wings were not that keen to pay him even that much.

The only reason he is a Flame is that they were willing to overpay him for his abilities more than any other team......

You do not believe that he would have chosen the Flames to play on because they had assembled a group of small skilled guys that had a lot in common with him and no one to go into the corners?

The reason I do not like having players getting paid more than they produce on the ice is that the resulting team sucks and does not make the playoffs year after year.


Are you happy that Bouwmeester made well over $22,000,000 while never contributing enough to get the flames into the top half of the league????


Sort of like admiring someone who wins a big lottery every year.

Well by looking at other 2.8 mil players who were ufa when they signed their contracts we have:

Bergenheim, Malhotra, Sullivan, Brodziak and Cleary. Hudler produces more then these guys. He's definitely in the 3.5-4.0 range for salary.

[calumniate]

Just think about how we could have had Tim Connolly for the same price and you'll start to feel better

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Just think about how we could have had Tim Connolly for the same price and you'll start to feel better

Or Erik Cole.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Really, what do you care how much a player gets paid, it's not your money. You can cherry pick certain players to prove your point but others can cherry pick worse examples to prove theirs. We all get it, you hate the player.

I would think fans of a team would care what a guy makes for two reasons.

1. A bad contract limits what a team can spend on other guys

2. Giving out bad deals shows that management is bad at assessing talent and value

If it was an uncapped league in which the Flames were willing to spend anything to win I guess you could say who cares it's not your mi ey but in a capped league where teams win with guys on undervalued contracts then fans should care what players on their team makes.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I don't hate Hudler.

He is a good player that just doesn't fit with the small Flame team and will not do well here or reach his potential so long as he is one of 6-7 small forwards.

Hudler produces at a 2.8M level.... barely... as the Red wings were not that keen to pay him even that much.

The only reason he is a Flame is that they were willing to overpay him for his abilities more than any other team......

Maybe Feaster's master plan was to re-sign Cammalleri, acquire Gerbe and Schroeder, sign Ryan Shannon, Gionta, Steve Sullivan, and Derek Roy as UFAs, and have Hudler, Gaudreau, Sven, and Byron on the team to form a mighty mouse team... who knows.

But I can't see how Hudler isn't a fit for the Flames. Hudler would be one of the most skilled guys on any team in the NHL and he's proven capable of producing at even strength playing 3rd line minutes and even in the playoffs. The only problem I had with the signing was that I didn't see a small, skilled winger as a real need. But now that he's here and with Iginla gone, who is going to displace him from the top 9?

$4M for the type of production that he can bring is fair value. Was the Flames' offer the best in terms of overall money? I bet it was. But I also think that Hudler came because he believed this team was going to compete for the playoffs and he was going to have the opportunity to be a key player. And if you are against paying more than $2.8M for a guy coming off a 25 goal and 50 season then you are against signing UFAs. The only concern is that you already have Sven Baertschi who is projected to be a mainstay on your top two lines. Assuming Cammy won't be re-signed, do you want another undersized guy in your top 6? But if the priority is to be a contender down the line rather than make the playoffs next season then Hudler's size and cap hit isn't a concern at all. This team isn't going to be a cap team. Hudler's cap hit will not prevent Feaster from making the moves he wants to make.

Teams are talking about top 9 rather than top 6 bottom 6 now because you need guys who can slide up and down the lineup with ease and Hudler is a guy that can do it. Hudler can produce in a 3rd line role with no PP minutes and he is skilled enough to play on your top lines.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by FAN

Maybe Feaster's master plan was to re-sign Cammalleri, acquire Gerbe and Schroeder, sign Ryan Shannon, Gionta, Steve Sullivan, and Derek Roy as UFAs, and have Hudler, Gaudreau, Sven, and Byron on the team to form a mighty mouse team... who knows.

But I can't see how Hudler isn't a fit for the Flames. Hudler would be one of the most skilled guys on any team in the NHL and he's proven capable of producing at even strength playing 3rd line minutes and even in the playoffs. The only problem I had with the signing was that I didn't see a small, skilled winger as a real need. But now that he's here and with Iginla gone, who is going to displace him from the top 9?

$4M for the type of production that he can bring is fair value. Was the Flames' offer the best in terms of overall money? I bet it was. But I also think that Hudler came because he believed this team was going to compete for the playoffs and he was going to have the opportunity to be a key player. And if you are against paying more than $2.8M for a guy coming off a 25 goal and 50 season then you are against signing UFAs. The only concern is that you already have Sven Baertschi who is projected to be a mainstay on your top two lines. Assuming Cammy won't be re-signed, do you want another undersized guy in your top 6? But if the priority is to be a contender down the line rather than make the playoffs next season then Hudler's size and cap hit isn't a concern at all. This team isn't going to be a cap team. Hudler's cap hit will not prevent Feaster from making the moves he wants to make.

Teams are talking about top 9 rather than top 6 bottom 6 now because you need guys who can slide up and down the lineup with ease and Hudler is a guy that can do it. Hudler can produce in a 3rd line role with no PP minutes and he is skilled enough to play on your top lines.

This team will be a cap team... has been over the cap for most of the time since 2006-07 years with players hidden in minors , The cap is going down 6M why do you think it will not be a cap team next year?

[PeteMoss]

Not sure where to fit this question... but does the NHL cap allow for credits for guys like Cervenka who I assume is not hitting most of the bonuses that are allocated in his cap hit this year?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Not sure where to fit this question... but does the NHL cap allow for credits for guys like Cervenka who I assume is not hitting most of the bonuses that are allocated in his cap hit this year?

What do you mean by credits?

Cervenka's cap hit, is his cap hit, it doesn't change. If he doesn't hit those bonuses then it just means he gets paid less but the cap hit doesn't change.

Thankfully next year, if brought back, Cervenka's cap hit will drop by about 3 million.

[Roof-Daddy]

Question:

What is the cap floor set at moving forward?

Is it still $15 million below the ceiling, or $20 million below now?

[Enoch Root]

going by memory, it will be something like $44m next year

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

going by memory, it will be something like $44m next year

Thanks.

Yeah, just googled it, $44 million for the next year it seems.

Going to be interesting to see how close to floor the Flames are.