Offseason - strategy of exploiting teams in cap trouble

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Prospects and draft picks is such an overrated "asset" as it guarantees you nothing and is zero help if the team is crap and/or the players available aren't any good.

Proven over the last 6 years every since Sam Gagner was the best prospect on the team with the best young guys and had the best draft picks in the history of the league.


Right now the Flames are paying their core the same as Edmonton's core and

Tanguay, Wideman, Hudler, Gio and Glencross are not markedly worse than Eberle, Hall, Horcoff and Smid AT the same price.

Feaster has gotten rid of a lot of the super Bad contracts and the Flames are in a better position than Edmonton......

The Flames can't go and get back into the mess they just got out of. The can't go and geta 2nd/3rd line centre (like RoR) and pay him like he was the 2nd or 3rd best centre in the league.

They have to go after UFA's and players that are available because of other teams cap problems.... but they all have to be able to deliver on their salaries


Hudler is not and will never be worth 4M for 5 years.

Wideman might earn his salary as high scoring defensemen.

The teams that offer Horton or Clarkson more than 4M / year are going to be very limited.....

Clowe has to look at what the post goal scoring machine Bertuzzi got paid.


The lack of cap space has hurt the Flames in the past as they could not afford the 2M value contract for Owens and then Bertuzzi.

The Flames were on the wrong side of the Regehr-Butler trade because they were in cap prison. Now they are in a position to convert Butler into someone else top 4 d-man.

I think you're really underating Hudler. Given the amount of talent he plays with, he's done a pretty good job.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think you're really underating Hudler. Given the amount of talent he plays with, he's done a pretty good job.

yep he almost had a career year... one of his best 3.

Really made a difference on a 28th place team.


Do you expect him to be better next year?


The Flame's fans are so used to players playing at a level of 1/2 of what they are worth that someone like Hudler looks good....

He was a 2.8M player with Detroit..... after he sat out a year to get paid more. He hasn't delivered more for the Flames.

Why is okay for the Flames to overpay by 25% for the same performance??

[timbit]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

yep he almost had a career year... one of his best 3.

Really made a difference on a 28th place team.


Do you expect him to be better next year?

Do you expect Eberle and Hall to be better next year?

[#-3]

Originally Posted by moon

That is an absolute crap core and with the garbage available in FA all the money in the world isn't getting you anything to make the team a SC contender even with Bowman as coach.

Cap is such an overrated "asset" as it guarantees you nothing and is zero help if the team is crap and/or the players available aren't any good.

I don't think the point of this thread is to talk about possible FA signings.

I think the point is, are there teams in "Cap Jail" that we can Fleaster in a trade, because we have the cap space to add assets. While there is a laundry list of teams (Boston, St Louis, Chicago, Vancouver.............) that need to shed assets to get under the cap.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Prospects and draft picks is such an overrated "asset" as it guarantees you nothing and is zero help if the team is crap and/or the players available aren't any good.

Sure they can be overrated and guarantees you nothing but also are the best and easiest way to get guys on cheap contracts that you value so much as proven over the last 6 years with Crosby, Toews, Kane, Malkin.

Proven over the last 6 years every since Sam Gagner was the best prospect on the team with the best young guys and had the best draft picks in the history of the league.

I guess if you use an example of the worst team in the league you can argue in favor or against anything.

Khabibulin is evidence that using FA's to supplement the core is a terrible way to go.

Right now the Flames are paying their core the same as Edmonton's core and

Tanguay, Wideman, Hudler, Gio and Glencross are not markedly worse than Eberle, Hall, Horcoff and Smid AT the same price.

Sure but Edmonton is a terrible team and once you add in other guys that are more part of the core than Horcofff and impact the game pretty easy to see the difference in points.

If you keep using Edmonton as the example i guess again you can make a lot of things look bad since they are horribly managed.

Feaster has gotten rid of a lot of the super Bad contracts and the Flames are in a better position than Edmonton......

As much as I hate Edmonton no the Flames are not in a better position because looking at the core of each team next year and their is no doubt that Hall, Eberle, RNH, Smid, Dubnyk is better than Tanguay, Cammy, Backlund, Gio and Ramo. With Edmonton also having better support players as well.

Wideman might earn his salary as high scoring defensemen.

Not a chance.

The teams that offer Horton or Clarkson more than 4M / year are going to be very limited.....

And wildly disappointed if they pay that.

Clowe has to look at what the post goal scoring machine Bertuzzi got paid.

And stay far away from the Flames hopefully.

The lack of cap space has hurt the Flames in the past as they could not afford the 2M value contract for Owens and then Bertuzzi.

Owens I assume is Nolan and who cares? Those guys aren't changing the fortune of the team.

The Flames were on the wrong side of the Regehr-Butler trade because they were in cap prison. Now they are in a position to convert Butler into someone else top 4 d-man.

They were on the wrong side of that deal because of terrible scouting on Butler and their stupid desire to waste FA money on Richards. Don't make the stupid decision to go after Richards and no need to be in the BS "cap jail" and make a bad deal.

[moon]

Originally Posted by #-3

I don't think the point of this thread is to talk about possible FA signings.

I think the point is, are there teams in "Cap Jail" that we can Fleaster in a trade, because we have the cap space to add assets. While there is a laundry list of teams (Boston, St Louis, Chicago, Vancouver.............) that need to shed assets to get under the cap.

I doubt much of that happens but i guess we can see.

With the compliance buyouts I can't see teams willing to give up much more than 4th and 5th round picks to shed bad deals.

Why give up a high pick when you can just buy a guy out and not hurt your team.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by moon

I doubt much of that happens but i guess we can see.

With the compliance buyouts I can't see teams willing to give up much more than 4th and 5th round picks to shed bad deals.

Why give up a high pick when you can just buy a guy out and not hurt your team.

I was commenting that i don't think signing Free Agents fits the title of exploiting teams in cap trouble.

We should be wildly speculating about the possiblities that are out there. Most of them wont work. But if there is a year a team in the Flames position could pull one of these off, it is this year.

Offer Sheets, A team like St Louis has 4 high profile RFA, and is going to have a vary hard time dealing with all of them at once.

RFA trades, maybe given the reduced salary cap an past tensions a guy like Kadri is unsignable by the leafs. So could we aquire him for way less than he is worth (like a 2014 1st rounder).

Teams might do a player for player trade like Bolland for Stempniak straight up, I think we win the hockey trade, they save over $1M and probably don't think their team is much worse for ware.

Trade for a guy like Vanek for way less than market value, Over $7M / with only one year left. And then hope we can resign him to a resonable contract.

The opportunities exist this year.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by moon

Why give up a high pick when you can just buy a guy out and not hurt your team.

The Flames gave up a 2nd rounder rather than pay Kotalik to go away (and paying him $3m to play elsewhere would effectively be a buyout).

Some of the internal cap teams might also have mandates from ownership not to buy out players.

But Feaster said theyre not interested in taking crappy contracts to get picks, even though cap hit isnt an issue. And he might well be telling the truth. Cap hit wasn't an issue with Kotalik either, the Flames ownership effectively just sold off a 2nd round pick for $3m.

Yes, the club is in a different position now, but given that history, it's quite possible that ownership simply isn't willing to pay millions in cash out of their pockets to get picks.

[moon]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

The Flames gave up a 2nd rounder rather than pay Kotalik to go away (and paying him $3m to play elsewhere would effectively be a buyout).

Some of the internal cap teams might also have mandates from ownership not to buy out players.

But Feaster said theyre not interested in taking crappy contracts to get picks, even though cap hit isnt an issue. And he might well be telling the truth. Cap hit wasn't an issue with Kotalik either, the Flames ownership effectively just sold off a 2nd round pick for $3m.

Yes, the club is in a different position now, but given that history, it's quite possible that ownership simply isn't willing to pay millions in cash out of their pockets to get picks.

A 2nd rounder when the compliance buy-out wasn't an option and most if not everyone thought it was a stupid move trading that pick.

[PantherExtreme]

Gonna put my neck waaaay out there and say nothing good will come from this 'Feaster the cap shark' thing. Keep your head down, stick to drafting. Please stop trying to outsmart the process Jay.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by moon

A 2nd rounder when the compliance buy-out wasn't an option and most if not everyone thought it was a stupid move trading that pick.

Didn't need a compliance buyout, he could have been buried in the AHL or Europe with impunity with respect to the cap.

My point is that given a straight up choice between cash or a pick, there's at least one ownership group in the NHL that went with cash. And it was ours. So they may not be keen to pay up a ton of cash to get a pick, which is the entire assumption behind this thread.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by moon

A 2nd rounder when the compliance buy-out wasn't an option and most if not everyone thought it was a stupid move trading that pick.

Not to mention, it was a free 2nd rounder for Buffalo as Kotalik just went away, as many speculated he would.

[freakinsaprikin]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Not to mention, it was a free 2nd rounder for Buffalo as Kotalik just went away, as many speculated he would.

Feaster needed the cap space to take his run a Richards. Kotalik didn't just go away, he got paid by Buffalo to play in Europe as opposed to the AHL.

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Centers include Bozak, Chipchura, Lapierre, Roy, Boyd Gordon

Stay away from Chipchura, if for no other reason than Daryl wanted to draft him. The Western Canadian 3rd liner is overplayed. Time for a little different philosophy.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

yep he almost had a career year... one of his best 3.

Really made a difference on a 28th place team.


Do you expect him to be better next year?


The Flame's fans are so used to players playing at a level of 1/2 of what they are worth that someone like Hudler looks good....

He was a 2.8M player with Detroit..... after he sat out a year to get paid more. He hasn't delivered more for the Flames.

Why is okay for the Flames to overpay by 25% for the same performance??

He's having a down year, but he hasn't looked bad he just has nobody to play with but you can tell he's a cerebral player that knows how to play a puck possession game. Detroit fans miss him, he was a very useful player for them on the 2nd line.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I hope the flames take a cautious approach with their "cap space" asset.

Don't go out and buy some available players just because you can afford it now. They really need to be targetting a very specific age and type of player. If those aren't available, don't overspend (the norm for most UFAs) for the next best options. Let's be patient and build this thing right. the fan base is sick of the stop-gap fix attempts.

I hope they have learned to be patient, but given the Richards and ROR offers, I don't get the sense that they are.

For that matter, there seem to be a number of fans that can't wait to through that money around in the offseason.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Dagger

He's having a down year, but he hasn't looked bad he just has nobody to play with but you can tell he's a cerebral player that knows how to play a puck possession game. Detroit fans miss him, he was a very useful player for them on the 2nd line.

Statistically, Hudler is pretty close to his career averages. Maybe slightly down from his career best numbers. If he scores a couple of goals and pick up a few more points he'll be right around the 20 goal 50 point mark if averaged out over a full season. He certainly has the talent to produce more and that was kind of the expectation, but at least he didn't fall off the map in terms of production after joining us.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I wonder if any team will sign a player this upcoming offseason with the plan to compliance buyout them the following summer as kind of a way to get around the cap.

An example is Richards. What if he gets bought out and then a team in cap trouble like Philly signs him to a 7-year deal at $1 million per year with the (wink wink) understanding that we will buy you out the next summer?

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I wonder if any team will sign a player this upcoming offseason with the plan to compliance buyout them the following summer as kind of a way to get around the cap.

An example is Richards. What if he gets bought out and then a team in cap trouble like Philly signs him to a 7-year deal at $1 million per year with the (wink wink) understanding that we will buy you out the next summer?

If anything is certain, its that there are 30 GMs, and countless AGMs, accountants and advisors, all working furiously to ruin this new CBA any way they can.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I wonder if any team will sign a player this upcoming offseason with the plan to compliance buyout them the following summer as kind of a way to get around the cap.

An example is Richards. What if he gets bought out and then a team in cap trouble like Philly signs him to a 7-year deal at $1 million per year with the (wink wink) understanding that we will buy you out the next summer?

Why would Richards do that? Too much risk and he could sign a short term 6+ million/yr deal if he wants.