The Flames Not As Weak As Many Believe

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

What is the point of this rant?

The Flames are not miles behind the other organizations....

Just because some guys have had a good year or good junior tournaments doesn't mean that they will be core players in the future.

Almost all the teams with young cores. to make the Flames cry in envy...... the Oilers, the Avs and the Flyers are not a heck of a lot better than the Flames and are in a worse position wrt to cap space and filling the holes needed.

Right now, in this spending limited league the cap space created by off loading the "3 solidest core pieces" and freeing up 20M in cap space is like having 3 more picks in the top 5.


The Flames have the cap space and the willingness by the owners to spend to the cap to sign the 3 best UFA's that the Flames want.

Where does a core of Horton, Clarkson, Clowe, Baertschi, Backlund, Glencross, Gio, Wideman,Brodie, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler and Mackinnon/Jones fit in as far as making the playoffs the next couple of years.

I like the Flames chances far more going into 2013-14 than I did going into 2012-13.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames are not miles behind the other organizations....

Just because some guys have had a good year or good junior tournaments doesn't mean that they will be core players in the future.

Almost all the teams with young cores. to make the Flames cry in envy...... the Oilers, the Avs and the Flyers are not a heck of a lot better than the Flames and are in a worse position wrt to cap space and filling the holes needed.

Right now, in this spending limited league the cap space created by off loading the "3 solidest core pieces" and freeing up 20M in cap space is like having 3 more picks in the top 5.


The Flames have the cap space and the willingness by the owners to spend to the cap to sign the 3 best UFA's that the Flames want.

Where does a core of Horton, Clarkson, Clowe, Baertschi, Backlund, Glencross, Gio, Wideman,Brodie, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler and Mackinnon/Jones fit in as far as making the playoffs the next couple of years.

I like the Flames chances far more going into 2013-14 than I did going into 2012-13.

They can make the playoffs with a few decent UFA's but they won't go any further, I would have thought the last 4 years would have shown that.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames are not miles behind the other organizations....

Just because some guys have had a good year or good junior tournaments doesn't mean that they will be core players in the future.

Almost all the teams with young cores. to make the Flames cry in envy...... the Oilers, the Avs and the Flyers are not a heck of a lot better than the Flames and are in a worse position wrt to cap space and filling the holes needed.

Right now, in this spending limited league the cap space created by off loading the "3 solidest core pieces" and freeing up 20M in cap space is like having 3 more picks in the top 5.


The Flames have the cap space and the willingness by the owners to spend to the cap to sign the 3 best UFA's that the Flames want.

Where does a core of Horton, Clarkson, Clowe, Baertschi, Backlund, Glencross, Gio, Wideman,Brodie, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler and Mackinnon/Jones fit in as far as making the playoffs the next couple of years.

I like the Flames chances far more going into 2013-14 than I did going into 2012-13.

Consecutive years out of the playoffs, not one single young player that has come in and made the league take notice; multiple coaches,, questionable management decisions, and reduced to signing second or third tier free agents.

You go right on believing that the Flames are just that close.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames are not miles behind the other organizations....

Just because some guys have had a good year or good junior tournaments doesn't mean that they will be core players in the future.

Almost all the teams with young cores. to make the Flames cry in envy...... the Oilers, the Avs and the Flyers are not a heck of a lot better than the Flames and are in a worse position wrt to cap space and filling the holes needed.

Right now, in this spending limited league the cap space created by off loading the "3 solidest core pieces" and freeing up 20M in cap space is like having 3 more picks in the top 5.


The Flames have the cap space and the willingness by the owners to spend to the cap to sign the 3 best UFA's that the Flames want.

Where does a core of Horton, Clarkson, Clowe, Baertschi, Backlund, Glencross, Gio, Wideman,Brodie, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler and Mackinnon/Jones fit in as far as making the playoffs the next couple of years.

I like the Flames chances far more going into 2013-14 than I did going into 2012-13.

Wow

Don't know where to begin, fundamentally flawed way to evaluate the future prospects of this team.

I'll say this, the Flyers and Oilers will be in the playoffs much sooner than us.

There's no way that a patchwork UFA core would a) ever realistically be signed, you expect us to sign the top three UFAs in one season? Give me a break. Second, haven't we learned that roster cobbled together by FAs is old, expensive and ineffective? I mean shouldn't that less be seeping in by now after you know, experiencing what the Flames have went through in the past 6 seasons?

3rd, the Flames players you mention are just nothing special. None of those players are core players on a good team.

Just don't know what to say, enjoy your delusional beliefs about this team. I'll send you a postcard from reality.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Kesler put up 37 points in his third full year in the league where Backlund is now, prorate Backlunds totals over a full 82 game season and he's at 39.

I don't think projecting him to be a Kesler like player is kool-aid induced... I think it's a reasonably optimistic projection. If I was saying that he'd be Malkin or Crosby that would be kool-aid induced but I'm not I'm saying that. I'm saying he has a decent chance of becoming a hard-minute, two-way center, with roughly a PPG% of around 0.80 on a good team in his prime... which is essentually what Kesler is to the Canucks. That's not even close to kool-aid territory.

Cool. So we are allowed to just ignore Backlund's injuries and pretend that he was healthy and kept on producing points when he was a scratch. Awesome.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They can make the playoffs with a few decent UFA's but they won't go any further, I would have thought the last 4 years would have shown that.

Over the last 4 years they had the highest paid least value UFA in the league. That is a mistake that no team can overcome.....

Had someone else won the Bouwmeester bidding war I firmly believe that the Flames would have been in the playoffs at least a couple of times over the last 4 years and had the 50-50 chance of winning any round.

If they would have given Cammalleri the Bouwmeester contract and stayed with Regehr, Phanuef, Aucion and Gio ......

Do you think that St.L. is a prohibitive favourite to win the SC ? They added Bouwmeester and gave up no roster player. They were likely a playoff team without Bouwmeester.

The last 4 years have shown me that if you make the playoffs you can win it all.

Is the NHL going to play the games or just have a coin toss between Chicago and Pittsburgh as to who will win this year's SC???

Vancouver should have won last year SC instead of playing 5 playoff games but last year the 12 place team LA beat the 9th place team NJ.

The year before the Boston the #7 team won it all.

Chicago won their cup from the #3 spot... going 6 games in the final against the #18 team

Pitts won their cup from the #8 spot


You have to go back to 2008-09 for the favourite team or even the top 2 won the SC with Detroit....

It seem to me that if you make the playoffs you are a SC contender.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

What has Couturier accomplished more than Horak?

Scored 95+ points in the CHL twice, played for Team Canada at the WJHC, played a full season at the NHL level for a play-off team, shut down Malkin as well as anyone in the play-offs over the past 4-5 years, score at basically a PPG at the AHL level, be 6'4, 200 lbs and play center.

But outside of all that you are right what has he accomplished compared to Horak.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Over the last 4 years they had the highest paid least value UFA in the league. That is a mistake that no team can overcome.....

Had someone else won the Bouwmeester bidding war I firmly believe that the Flames would have been in the playoffs at least a couple of times over the last 4 years and had the 50-50 chance of winning any round.

If they would have given Cammalleri the Bouwmeester contract and stayed with Regehr, Phanuef, Aucion and Gio ......

LOL.

This is your big reasoning and point to show the team isn't as bad as it is?

Putting some BS blame on one guy that was the best defenseman on the team over his contract?

The last 4 years have shown me that if you make the playoffs you can win it all.

Then you haven't been watching the play-offs at all.

Is the NHL going to play the games or just have a coin toss between Chicago and Pittsburgh as to who will win this year's SC???

Vancouver should have won last year SC instead of playing 5 playoff games but last year the 12 place team LA beat the 9th place team NJ.

The LA team that won it all was much better than the 12th place team. That team with the additions they made would have finished at least top 4 in the West.

You have to go back to 2008-09 for the favourite team or even the top 2 won the SC with Detroit....

It seem to me that if you make the playoffs you are a SC contender.

One team in the last 25 (+?) years has won the Cup without home ice advantage in the first round, i.e. top 4 team. So you can keep trying to massage the numbers all you want but unless you are top 4 in your conference or the Kings who made major changes to improve their team you aren't winning the Cup.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames have the cap space and the willingness by the owners to spend to the cap to sign the 3 best UFA's that the Flames want.

Where does a core of Horton, Clarkson, Clowe, Baertschi, Backlund, Glencross, Gio, Wideman,Brodie, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler and Mackinnon/Jones fit in as far as making the playoffs the next couple of years.

The core will be a massive failure. Of the three UFAs you listed, Horton, at his best, is the closest one to being a first line winger. The others are 2nd line wingers or complementary players on the first line. Worse, those guys will probably cost the team more than $15M a year in cap space between them.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Kesler put up 37 points in his third full year in the league where Backlund is now, prorate Backlunds totals over a full 82 game season and he's at 39.

I don't think projecting him to be a Kesler like player is kool-aid induced... I think it's a reasonably optimistic projection. If I was saying that he'd be Malkin or Crosby that would be kool-aid induced but I'm not I'm saying that. I'm saying he has a decent chance of becoming a hard-minute, two-way center, with roughly a PPG% of around 0.80 on a good team in his prime... which is essentually what Kesler is to the Canucks. That's not even close to kool-aid territory.

PPG at .80? He hasn't come close to doing that in his 4 years of professional hockey. Not at the AHL level and not at the NHL level. He was average (for a top 6 NHLer) in the WHL and struggled in Sweden.

How can you think that he will make such a monumental jump in offense despite not ever showing he has that offensive ability and not think that it isn't drinking kool-aid?

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Where does a core of Horton, Clarkson, Clowe, Baertschi, Backlund, Glencross, Gio, Wideman,Brodie, Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler and Mackinnon/Jones fit in as far as making the playoffs the next couple of years.

Probably 29th/30th depending on what teams like Florida, Nashville and NYI do.

But that is a horrible core and non-play-off cap team. Would be about the worse case scenario for the Flames going forward as they waste money, lose and have terrible contracts all over the roster.

[FAN]

I don't get the comparison between Backlund and Kesler. They have a completely different offensive skill set.

[moon]

Originally Posted by FAN

I don't get the comparison between Backlund and Kesler. They have a completely different offensive skill set.

Kesler made a big jump in offense and people are hoping that Backlund does so they are using the future as evidence of now.

They are a good comparable if Backlund makes the ridiculous jump that people project but awful if you actually look at the two players.

[Barca]

Originally Posted by moon

Kesler made a big jump in offense and people are hoping that Backlund does so they are using the future as evidence of now.

They are a good comparable if Backlund makes the ridiculous jump that people project but awful if you actually look at the two players.

No.. comparing Backlund to a Selke nominee (if healthy) like Kesler is not fair to him.

Before Kesler had his big breakout year, he was a solid 25 goal per year player and put up good defensive numbers while shutting down the oppositions top lines.

Backlund has yet shown he can stay healthy for 82 games and people are hoping he makes a gigantic leap and reach Kesler's level is just wishful thinking.

A more fair comparable player would be Brandon Sutter, and that's IF Backlund is as good as everyone here thinks he is and reaches his potential.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by moon

How can you think that he will make such a monumental jump in offense despite not ever showing he has that offensive ability and not think that it isn't drinking kool-aid?

Did you miss the part where I said "in his prime"? Or are you just going to cherry-pick parts of what I said to create a strawman argument.

And if you didn't bother to actually look at their stats you'll notice that Kesler never put up numbers like that either... Not in the NCAA, not in the AHL, not in the first 4 years he was in the NHL.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Did you miss the part where I said "in his prime"? Or are you just going to cherry-pick parts of what I said to create a strawman argument.

And if you didn't bother to actually look at their stats you'll notice that Kesler never put up numbers like that either... Not in the NCAA, not in the AHL, not in the first 4 years he was in the NHL.

The thing is you could take any player with ho hum stats in their first 4 years and say, see he's just like Kesler. The fact is they aren't even comparable in the type of game they play.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Did you miss the part where I said "in his prime"? Or are you just going to cherry-pick parts of what I said to create a strawman argument.

And if you didn't bother to actually look at their stats you'll notice that Kesler never put up numbers like that either... Not in the NCAA, not in the AHL, not in the first 4 years he was in the NHL.

Considering he is already 24 I would only assume it is "in his prime" as he is already there.

I am not cherry picking anything you said and pointing out that at no point in his hockey outside of maybe his 15 year old season has he shown the offensive ability to score .8 PPG. He has also not ever shown that he would be an elite level defensive center in the league.

It really seems your only argument so far is that Kesler made a big jump so Backlund will as well. As pointed out they aren't similar players, didn't really have a similar junior/minors careers and outside of you wanting Backlund to make the jump that Kesler did have not much in common or comparable at all.

So how about instead of bringing up all the things Kesler did why not bring some reasons that Backlund did because the fact that one guy did something has about 0 relevance to the chances of Backlund doing it.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Did you miss the part where I said "in his prime"? Or are you just going to cherry-pick parts of what I said to create a strawman argument.

And if you didn't bother to actually look at their stats you'll notice that Kesler never put up numbers like that either... Not in the NCAA, not in the AHL, not in the first 4 years he was in the NHL.

Kesler put up 30 goals as a 20 year old in the AHL in 04-05. Only 1 guy his age (Vanek) put up more than that in what was a year with a lot of talent in the league due to the lockout. Everyone else who scored 30+ goals that year were 2001 draftees or older.

[timbit]

Seriously, what team in the NHL has a worse prognosis, moving forward, than the Flames?

Will be some tough times here for awhile, as in, 3 or 4 seasons.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

The thing is you could take any player with ho hum stats in their first 4 years and say, see he's just like Kesler. The fact is they aren't even comparable in the type of game they play.

But I didn't take any player ho hum stats in their first 4 years and say he's just like Kesler. I took a player that plays the same position as Kesler, has the same draft pedigree as Kesler, produced at a near identical rate as Kesler in the NHL at the same point in his careers, and noted that they both produce positive possession numbers and said that he could be just as good as Kesler.

Are they identical players? Of course not but do I think that Backlund could be as equally effective in a similar role? Yes, yes I do.