Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[valo403]

Originally Posted by nik-

First, that much larger segment of the population who enjoys the Flames over the CPO pay handsomely to get a ticket or watch TV creating TV contract revenue. The argument against funding arts compared to funding professional sports is silly. They are in different economic galaxies.

Second, people don't stop spending money because they can't spend it by the Saddledome. They just spend it somewhere else.

Sure, but in a city that desperately needs to find a way to draw people to the core that's a problem.

[Muta]

Having been to the CPO many times I would also say that people who go to the Philharmonic, in general, are of the wealthier type. The idea that the sports fans pay handsomely is kinda negated by this fact; CPO fans also pay handsomely, and are probably capable of paying more.

But I do see the point nik is making there.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Muta

Having been to the CPO many times I would also say that people who go to the Philharmonic, in general, are of the wealthier type. The idea that the sports fans pay handsomely is kinda negated by this fact; CPO fans also pay handsomely, and are probably capable of paying more.

But I do see the point nik is making there.

The volume will never match, and the CPO will never get multiple millions from a TV deal.

[ToraToraTora]

If it's not 100% publicly funded, the Flames will probably move to Tuscaloosa.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by valo403

Sure, but in a city that desperately needs to find a way to draw people to the core that's a problem.

That's true, but it's also the reason that the city shouldn't be helping to fund an arena that will draw less people to the core. An arena with more luxury boxes and less seats will not cause more money to be spent in the city.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by gargamel

That's true, but it's also the reason that the city shouldn't be helping to fund an arena that will draw less people to the core. An arena with more luxury boxes and less seats will not cause more money to be spent in the city.

Well that depends on what's developed, and not just the arena. An arena development can be a catalyst for a lot of other projects.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by nik-

The volume will never match, and the CPO will never get multiple millions from a TV deal.

I know that; my point was that the consumer base is just as wealthy, that's all.

[bizaro86]

As one of the (likely) very few people who has CPO season tickets and Flames season tickets, I actually don't think gov't funding for either organization to get a new building is appropriate. Both Jack Singer and the Dome were built in the '80s (83 and 85 respectively) and both were paid for publicly. Both serve mainly a more affluent clientele, and both buildings are still functionally meeting their original purpose, even if there would be significant improvements possible with new buildings.

Catalyzing the development of an area downtown can be done in many ways, and the least efficient per dollar would be building a publicly funded arena. Tax abatements for new development, rebates for nightlife, or large draws that aren't replacing an existing draw elsewhere would all be better. A new arena mostly just moves existing business around, although we might get a few more concerts. A new opera house (as one example) is something we don't currently have that would be a similar catalyst. Other things would also work, like a broadway style theatre, giant waterpark, huge ferris wheel, etc.

Basically, a new arena mainly benefits people who don't need the public money.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

As one of the (likely) very few people who has CPO season tickets and Flames season tickets...

Is there a CPIA? Can you give me the link to sign up?

[Stillman16]

Originally Posted by nik-

First, that much larger segment of the population who enjoys the Flames over the CPO pay handsomely to get a ticket or watch TV creating TV contract revenue. The argument against funding arts compared to funding professional sports is silly. They are in different economic galaxies.

Second, people don't stop spending money because they can't spend it by the Saddledome. They just spend it somewhere else.

Go talk to the owners of the bars any where in town, and ask if the NHL helps or hurts their business....

Perhaps the taxes to business (or more specifically, entertainment) could be raised slightly to fund some of the new building....

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Stillman16

Go talk to the owners of the bars any where in town, and ask if the NHL helps or hurts their business....

So with no hockey those customers put their bar money into RRSPs instead?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Stillman16

Go talk to the owners of the bars any where in town, and ask if the NHL helps or hurts their business....

No, because the answer to that is obvious, but the NHL isn't going to disappear because the Flames don't get their arena publicly funded. On a higher level, the local economy isn't going to be effected either because like Cliff said, people don't just save the money they intended to spend. They're still Westerners who spend spend spend.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

Is there a CPIA? Can you give me the link to sign up?

I don't think we (symphony fans) have the critical mass for that, although I'd certainly sign up. Maybe subforums for the young professionals group (Club Wolfgang) and fans of Melanie Leonard (the conductor)? http://www.cpo-live.com/main/biography.php?id=770

[SebC]

Originally Posted by valo403

Sure, but in a city that desperately needs to find a way to draw people to the core that's a problem.

There's better ways to do that. Stop subsidizing expansion at the fringes (this one actual pulls double duty, it brings people to the core while saving the city money, and people who live in the core tend to play in the core); invest in truly public infrastructure like the new central library, new/redeveloped parks (e.g. Sien Lok, Century Gardens, St. Patrick's Island), pedestrian bridges; revitalize places like 8th St SW; etc.

[Tinordi]

Yeah Vancouver's core isn't awesome because they built Rogers Arena there. Vancouver's core is awesome because they have good development policy.

[Stillman16]

Originally Posted by nik-

No, because the answer to that is obvious, but the NHL isn't going to disappear because the Flames don't get their arena publicly funded. On a higher level, the local economy isn't going to be effected either because like Cliff said, people don't just save the money they intended to spend. They're still Westerners who spend spend spend.

No games, less patrons, it is a fact for the bars in "the core" (the ones needing the arena).

Perhaps the money gets spent regardless, however, it doesn't go to those that count on it. No arena, perhaps no NHL, and those bars are gone. No NHL, people spend the money on movies, travel, who knows what else, just not in "the core" where the arena benefit would be.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Stillman16

No games, less patrons, it is a fact for the bars in "the core" (the ones needing the arena).

Perhaps the money gets spent regardless, however, it doesn't go to those that count on it. No arena, perhaps no NHL, and those bars are gone. No NHL, people spend the money on movies, travel, who knows what else, just not in "the core" where the arena benefit would be.

So that justifies hundreds of millions in subsidies from a broke province and a broke municipality? So that a couple of bars can make money?

Worst. Argument. Ever.

[casucks]

Originally Posted by Mccree

This is my biggest concern. Right now I am in Sec 226 (whites I beleive) As long as my seats are very similer to my old ones and the concourse is bigger what the outside looks like is not important

The rebuild will affect 1000's of people. There were alot of complaints after the last reno's. I know 20+ people who still complain about their re-locate after reno's. Lots of people got screwed.

I have perfect location now and fear losing it!

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by SebC

There's better ways to do that. Stop subsidizing expansion at the fringes (this one actual pulls double duty, it brings people to the core while saving the city money, and people who live in the core tend to play in the core); invest in truly public infrastructure like the new central library, new/redeveloped parks (e.g. Sien Lok, Century Gardens, St. Patrick's Island), pedestrian bridges; revitalize places like 8th St SW; etc.

I think that any new arena should certainly be in the core. There is benefit and a lot of potential synergies with surrounding uses. It can, if done well, be a catalyst for other development. Vancouver's arena is squeezed between elevated roadways - in fact not all that well integrated into their core.

I agree, that the focus on investment should be in other areas - like the public realm. Just look at how Calgary utilized a CRL - to build infrastructure to redevelop the East Village. That includes the library, streetscapes, parks, the river pathway, etc. That will draw people and will ultimately be the kind of thing to truly revitalize the core and make it great. Edmonton is choosing to use CRL for primarily an arena. I'll take our approach to revitalization.

It's also important to keep in mind that the core (Bow River to 17th Avenue, and Elbow River to 14th Street SW) produces 43% of our city's entire property tax base. It is the goose that lays the golden egg from a tax base perspective, so it's really important to feed that goose by investing in it and making it better.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Stillman16

Go talk to the owners of the bars any where in town, and ask if the NHL helps or hurts their business....

Perhaps the taxes to business (or more specifically, entertainment) could be raised slightly to fund some of the new building....

Maybe we could cut out the middleman? Skip the Flames altogether, give a million bucks to a couple hundred of our favorite bars in town.

As much as we like to think hockey is a part of our culture, it's not nearly as ingrained as alcohol.