The Flames Not As Weak As Many Believe

[The Coppernian One]

Originally Posted by transplant99

None of those teams were anywhere close to being a #1 overall pick because of futility.

This team as currently iced is by far the worst since the team came to Calgary.

The Flames have 30 points in 37 games. O|bviously there's still 11 games to go, but extrapolated to an 82 game season that's a 66 point pace. Edmonton had 62 points in each of its 30th place finishes. So right now this version of the Flames is trending to be 4 points better than the Oilers of 2 and 3 years ago, so I'd say your statement is accurate.

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by New Era

When Iginla was here there were too many people that thought the team was better than it was. Now that Iginla is gone they think the team is worse than it is. The team isn't as bad as it appears. Someone else said it in the thread. The Flames are just a little too old and it shows. Fortunately there are some kids that can step into support roles and the team will get younger, and as they do, get better. This is why the Flames look really bad. They are in transition and teams in transition always appear to be worse than they are.

The Flames have some really nice pieces in support roles. Where they are lacking is star power up top. That is why this draft is so important, and why player development is crucial. Add a franchise center in this draft, another high end forward and top 4 defenseman in the first round of this draft and they may not be that bad off. There are still pieces on the current roster that could help recoup another good young player that could slot into the top six. With the cap space the Flames have, and the troubles other teams may run into, they could easily find another body that fills out the top six. It's not as bad as many like to say.

If they draft a forward with the their 1st pick they wont be drafting any D-men that will be instant #1's with St Louis's pick. I hope they still draft the best player available with the other 1st rounders and then they may be able to trade for a #1 D if they decide to go that route. I don't think we should be dissapointed as fans if we get Jones because it may force a better re-build but the top 3-4 forwards do look like winners.

[Calgary4LIfe]

There is not much to build around in this organization. Actually, I would say there is absolutely nothing to build around. Brodie will be a big part of the future, and so will Baertschi - but they will both be good pieces to add to whomever the Flames 'build around'. Who knows what development does, however. Perhaps there are pieces to build around that just force you to do so by how well they develop. However, Flames have some pretty good pieces to help them in the future, but nothing I would say "Build around".

With that being said, I really understand where the OP is coming from. Perhaps he chose his words a little wrong - "Build Around" perhaps not being the best phrase. The Flames are BETTER than what their record indicates in terms of TALENT. Not performance, but just sheer talent. That I can definitely agree with. The Flames are not the least talented team in the NHL, that's for sure.

With that being said...

They have some of the worst chemistry and effort issues, and some of the most regular 'break-downs' in terms of play in the NHL. That is what the Flames are. A just below average talented team, that is (and has been) a 'mess' of a team for a while.

It isn't leadership - sorry downers, but there was nothing wrong with Iginla's leadership.

It is just too much of a mix of players, with no real identity. I strongly believe that the sum of the parts were much, much greater than the whole, and that is why the Flames have disappointed for a while. Some may argue that the Flames just don't have the talent. Well, everyone is entitled to their opinions and viewpoints. I may be wrong myself. I just see the Flames as (was) a fairly talented bunch that continually under-perform for whatever reason - and that reason is any semblance to an identity. Too many inconsistent efforts from too many inconsistent players.

The talent is (and definitely WAS) there, but unfortunately the only consistent aspect of this team, were their inconsistencies.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by toquester

Look at the forwards -
Glencross and Baerschi are a given, but Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler, Stempniak, Backlund and Stajan seem to be a pretty good group to build around pletely tanks (which it appears it has done), who could blame them.

Not sure if serious, but with the exception of Backlund these "pieces to build around" hanged their heads down, started sulking, took their inflated ball and went home.

How does a $6mil dollar man Cammalleri think that Iginla's departure somehow gave him a right to check out...ridiculous.

Horak and Max have shown more heart pride and energy in one game than these "solid pieces" (of turd maybe) in a month.

I'm not even going to start about Jordano because what happened to the guy defies all laws of physics. His fall from grace broke the terminal velocity barrier.

What a core to build around!

[FAN]

Originally Posted by toquester

I know the popular consensus appears to be that the Flames have completely fell apart since they shipped out Iginla and Bouwmeester, but I am not so sure. Considering the top players, they are still a pretty decent group.

Well considering they weren't really a "decent" group with Iginla and Bouwmeester, it logically follows that this isn't a decent group without them. Very few teams have the depth to absorb the loss of the team's top forward and top (or second best) defenseman withotu being much weaker.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Last year Montreal finished 28th spot and were the same heartless mess that the Flames current are:

The LOSERs on that team that are currently challenging for the president's Cup are:

Alexei Emelin, D
Andrei Markov, D
Brian Gionta, RW
David Desharnais, C
Gabriel Dumont, C
Josh Gorges, D
Lars Eller, C
Max Pacioretty, LW
P.K. Subban, D
Raphael Diaz, D
Rene Bourque, LW
Ryan White, C
Tomas Kaberle, D
Tomas Plekanec, C
Travis Moen, LW
Yannick Weber, D
Carey Price
Peter Budaj


The Montreal blow up was to get Cammalleri, Gomez, and Cole out of town

add Prust, Armstrong and a couple of rookies Gallagher and Galchenyuk

They signed their franchise player, Subban, to a 2.8M / year deal that he held out for..... For crying out loud..... ROR is making making almost twice that because of the Flames to play on the only team that is almost as bad as the Flames.

Don't tell me that the Canadiens were that much better off this time last year than the Flames are this year.


Last year Price was 20th in save percentage.


I wonder what would have happened if Hartley had gotten the Canadiens job and went all Swiss , (small skilled) on their strategy.


Not all teams go Edmonton and take 5 years of getting pushed around.


The Flames have the skilled guys...too many.. It should not be that hard to get some guys like Prust, Kostopolus, Armstrong, Regehr, Hannan to replace some of the "talent"

Montreals biggest move was to buy out Gomez.

The Flames have already made that move by getting rid of Bouwmeester.

Now they have to get rid of a couple of the the weaker skilled guys....Tanguay, Cammalleri come to mind to make room for Bouma and the UFA.(Clarkson)

Montreal saw that Cammalleri was actually part of their problem and that Bourque was an upgrade as far as TEAM went.

PS. The Flames already have Baertschi and the #1 pick for next year.

Maybe a little disingenuous putting Markov on that loser list. Top defenseman in this league who's been more or less on IR since 2008-2009. Getting him back was huge

[toquester]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Not sure if serious, but with the exception of Backlund these "pieces to build around" hanged their heads down, started sulking, took their inflated ball and went home.

How does a $6mil dollar man Cammalleri think that Iginla's departure somehow gave him a right to check out...ridiculous.

Horak and Max have shown more heart pride and energy in one game than these "solid pieces" (of turd maybe) in a month.

I'm not even going to start about Jordano because what happened to the guy defies all laws of physics. His fall from grace broke the terminal velocity barrier.

What a core to build around!

As was demonstrated before, most of the players have performed offensively quite well when the numbers are extrapolated. It is becoming redundant to hash over the numbers again and again.

The players who really checked out were Iginla and Kiprusoff. Those are the guys this team was supposed to build around.

A team that is afraid to make a mistake because every mistake ends up in the net, is handicapped, demoralized and prone to make more mistakes. Poor goaltending will bring any team down in more ways than one. When you are not able to rely on a goalie to bail you out once in a while, you end up with the worst g.a.a. in the league, like the Flames have. Before everyone gets run off, it might be beneficial to start building from goal out.

[Oil Stain]

Montreal also made the playoffs the 4 seasons prior to tanking last year. Plus, their goals for /against was better then the Flames last season despite being further behind in the standings. They also didn't sell off two of their best players at the deadline, and possibly lose another to retirement.

Calgary has to replace top line level players just to get back to competing for 9th.

They are done for a few seasons. At least the fans only had to go through 48 games of suck this year. That's pretty lucky.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by toquester

As was demonstrated before, most of the players have performed offensively quite well when the numbers are extrapolated. It is becoming redundant to hash over the numbers again and again.

The players who really checked out were Iginla and Kiprusoff. Those are the guys this team was supposed to build around.

A team that is afraid to make a mistake because every mistake ends up in the net, is handicapped, demoralized and prone to make more mistakes. Poor goaltending will bring any team down in more ways than one. When you are not able to rely on a goalie to bail you out once in a while, you end up with the worst g.a.a. in the league, like the Flames have. Before everyone gets run off, it might be beneficial to start building from goal out.

So what's the excuse for missing the playoffs the previous 3 years?

That often its no longer bad bounces or bad luck or 1 or two bad players. It's a bad team.

[afc wimbledon]

Bad teams tend to be worse than the sum of the individuals, good teams tend to be better, the Flames are grimly bad right now, they need at least 5 good to top end pieces to turn things around, a 1st line both foward and defense and a goalie, what they have in the system is, so far the makings of the second and third lines.
They may strike it lucky with a goalie but it is overwhelmingly more likely they won't and this to will need to be drafted.

Personally if the goal is to compete for the cup its 4 or 5 years away before they start to look like a contendor, not in it mind you but looking like they are a UFA or so away.

Of course the management can just shoot for 8th place fairly quickly with a few free agents but this all but screws the chances of winning the cup in the long term.

[toquester]

Originally Posted by Ped

So what's the excuse for missing the playoffs the previous 3 years?

That often its no longer bad bounces or bad luck or 1 or two bad players. It's a bad team.

If you have built your team around key performers (like Iginla, Kiprusoff and Bouwmeester) and they don't perform like the franchise players they are paid to be game in and game out, complacency sets in. The Flames weren't absolutely terrible over the last three years, they just were not good when it counted most. I believe this was what Sutter was alluding to when he said "these changes needed to happen".

[Dion]

The play of Kiprusoff over the previous three years masked the real problems with this team. With his injury and inconsistant play this season we got to see Flames for what they realy were and it wasn't a playoff team.This rebuilding should have happened a few years ago.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by toquester

If you have built your team around key performers (like Iginla, Kiprusoff and Bouwmeester) and they don't perform like the franchise players they are paid to be game in and game out, complacency sets in. The Flames weren't absolutely terrible over the last three years, they just were not good when it counted most. I believe this was what Sutter was alluding to when he said "these changes needed to happen".

The trouble was though they didn't build a team around anything, there was never a sense of plan, just a hope that somehow Iginla could score enough and Kipper could keep enough out that picking up random pieces on the UFA market would suffice.
To be frank had they built a team around Iginla it would still perform without him, all be it at a lower pace, its the fact it is a hodge podge of players with no appreciable identity that is why it is as lousy as it is now

[toquester]

Originally Posted by Dion

The play of Kiprusoff over the previous three years masked the real problems with this team. With his injury and inconsistant play this season we got to see Flames for what they realy were and it wasn't a playoff team.This rebuilding should have happened a few years ago.

Kipper was good for most of the season, but he just never elevated his play when everything was on the line. If he had, the Flames would have collected a few more points and ended up in the playoffs at least one of those three years. He disappeared at that time of year consistently.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by toquester

Kipper was good for most of the season, but he just never elevated his play when everything was on the line. If he had, the Flames would have collected a few more points and ended up in the playoffs at least one of those three years. He disappeared at that time of year consistently.

He was overplayed, and so towards the end of the year fatigue set in, can't blame kipper when they overspent so badly on UFA's it left them having to find back ups who weren't even winning in europe to play for the league minimum.

Same thing happened with Luongo but at least Nonis and Gillis recognised you have to tell a goalie to sit, not ask them, and you have to get them proper back up.

[toquester]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

He was overplayed, and so towards the end of the year fatigue set in, can't blame kipper when they overspent so badly on UFA's it left them having to find back ups who weren't even winning in europe to play for the league minimum.

Same thing happened with Luongo but at least Nonis and Gillis recognised you have to tell a goalie to sit, not ask them, and you have to get them proper back up.

Kipper gets off the hook and the other team members are called garbage.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by toquester

As was demonstrated before, most of the players have performed offensively quite well when the numbers are extrapolated. It is becoming redundant to hash over the numbers again and again.

The players who really checked out were Iginla and Kiprusoff. Those are the guys this team was supposed to build around.

A team that is afraid to make a mistake because every mistake ends up in the net, is handicapped, demoralized and prone to make more mistakes. Poor goaltending will bring any team down in more ways than one. When you are not able to rely on a goalie to bail you out once in a while, you end up with the worst g.a.a. in the league, like the Flames have. Before everyone gets run off, it might be beneficial to start building from goal out.

I didn't say anything about their offense (I agree with Pointman's posts but that's besides the point).

These pieces you want to build around mentally checked out when daddy Iginla left the town. They were pathetically unable to rally younger players around and respond when bloody Oilers were beating them like a redheaded stepchild. 0 pride or fight in them.

They were hiding behind Iginla and once that fig leaf was removed they were exposed for what they really are.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by toquester

Kipper was good for most of the season, but he just never elevated his play when everything was on the line. If he had, the Flames would have collected a few more points and ended up in the playoffs at least one of those three years. He disappeared at that time of year consistently.

We had no proven backup so Kiprusoff got 70+ games which lead to him being burnt out near the end of the season. Blame management for not getting him a backup that could ease the load.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by toquester

Kipper gets off the hook and the other team members are called garbage.

If you expect a goaltender to play 70+ games season after season and not burn him out is insane.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by toquester

I did not say the team would be fine with better goaltending. There have been holes with this team for years even with good goaltending. The bad goaltending just emphasizes the suckage and turns the team from adequate, to terrible.

I'd agrue we aren't getting "bad" goaltending, our crap ass defense is no longer getting covered out by Kiprusoff every night. We've been a bad team for years, its just that Kiprusoff has bailed us out. IMO we've been this bad for years as a team.

I agree, individually there are pieces that could be useful in the NHL. But some of it is just frustrating to see; e.g. Tanguay, I would be more frustrated with him if I actually noticed him more, but he's so invisible I actually forget he's still on this team sometimes.