The Flames Not As Weak As Many Believe

[Badgers Nose]

I agree with the OP sentiment, but think that it is due to parity in the league.

The Flames are not really that bad in absolute terms, but in relative terms they are exactly what they appear to be; 27 out of 30. None of the other teams are standing still either.

IMO a top ten team needs top ten management. I believe the Flames management is 25-30th.

When this is fixed, then the team will rise to the top again very quickly.

Edmonton is proof that all the talent in the world will get you nowhere without excellent management.

[ramizle]

You're right. The answers are in the room.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Somebody was obviously not a fan during the "young guns" era. Not even close to how bad some of those Flames rosters were.

I've been a Flames fan 25+ years and can easily say this team is far worse then any young gun era team. It is possible there are more individually talented players on this team then some of the young gun teams (well not possible, for sure), but as a team, the 2013 Flames are worse then them all. At least young gun teams had effort and commitment to a team game (for the most part, there were Val Bure's and players of his ilk of course), at least they played team defence.

Just wait, the end of the season will see us in 29th or 30th place overall, 30th place GA and 30th place for goal differential. No Flames team has ever been close to being that bad.

[Sakari]

Our offense is better than the Stanley cup winning team, the LA Kings. It honestly is. If we had a big 1st line centerman in that, it could very well be a stanley cup winning offense. Our defense is terrible. Make all the excuses you want, it sucks ass.

[ricardodw]

Last year Montreal finished 28th spot and were the same heartless mess that the Flames current are:

The LOSERs on that team that are currently challenging for the president's Cup are:

Alexei Emelin, D
Andrei Markov, D
Brian Gionta, RW
David Desharnais, C
Gabriel Dumont, C
Josh Gorges, D
Lars Eller, C
Max Pacioretty, LW
P.K. Subban, D
Raphael Diaz, D
Rene Bourque, LW
Ryan White, C
Tomas Kaberle, D
Tomas Plekanec, C
Travis Moen, LW
Yannick Weber, D
Carey Price
Peter Budaj


The Montreal blow up was to get Cammalleri, Gomez, and Cole out of town

add Prust, Armstrong and a couple of rookies Gallagher and Galchenyuk

They signed their franchise player, Subban, to a 2.8M / year deal that he held out for..... For crying out loud..... ROR is making making almost twice that because of the Flames to play on the only team that is almost as bad as the Flames.

Don't tell me that the Canadiens were that much better off this time last year than the Flames are this year.


Last year Price was 20th in save percentage.


I wonder what would have happened if Hartley had gotten the Canadiens job and went all Swiss , (small skilled) on their strategy.


Not all teams go Edmonton and take 5 years of getting pushed around.


The Flames have the skilled guys...too many.. It should not be that hard to get some guys like Prust, Kostopolus, Armstrong, Regehr, Hannan to replace some of the "talent"

Montreals biggest move was to buy out Gomez.

The Flames have already made that move by getting rid of Bouwmeester.

Now they have to get rid of a couple of the the weaker skilled guys....Tanguay, Cammalleri come to mind to make room for Bouma and the UFA.(Clarkson)

Montreal saw that Cammalleri was actually part of their problem and that Bourque was an upgrade as far as TEAM went.

PS. The Flames already have Baertschi and the #1 pick for next year.

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by ramizle

You're right. The answers are in the room.

thats right, the room that contains feaster, king and probably edwards.

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by Sakari

Our offense is better than the Stanley cup winning team, the LA Kings. It honestly is. If we had a big 1st line centerman in that, it could very well be a stanley cup winning offense. Our defense is terrible. Make all the excuses you want, it sucks ass.

LOL. So Kopitar, Brown, Richards, Carter, Williams < Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler, Glencross? Sorry, no chance.

[Pointman]

Flames are 13th in goals forward per game and 26th in shots per game. Also 18th in 5-on-5 goals forward. Offense is average at best, and I dunno what's the deal with such a high shooting percentage. It is 10th powerplay and anormally high shooting percentage that makes Flames look like strong offensive team.

For the sake of comparision, 2013 vs 1997/8 team:

Goals per game: 13th vs 14th
Shots per game: 26th vs 11th
5-on-5 goals: 18th vs 17th
Powerplay: 10th vs 22nd

Aside from powerplay, this team's offense is as bad, or worse, than Young Guns team.

[Badgers Nose]

ricardodw makes goods points above, that support the notion of a top down regime change.

A credible GM, even with a retread Coach, can make a ton of progress in a short time.

IMO Montreal has to be the model for next year.

That starts with a new GM.

[d_phaneuf]

You can't compare the situation to Montreal it's night and day

in goal differential they were only -14 over 82 games and should have been closer to the 7-9 spot in the East based on that

the Flames are -34 over 37 games so far this year

Montreal is also strong down the middle which they could build off

I think anyone expecting a quick turnaround like the Habs is going to be very disappointed

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

You can't compare the situation to Montreal it's night and day

in goal differential they were only -14 over 82 games and should have been closer to the 7-9 spot in the East based on that

the Flames are -34 over 37 games so far this year

Montreal is also strong down the middle which they could build off

I think anyone expecting a quick turnaround like the Habs is going to be very disappointed

So you are saying that Montreal was a strong 28th place team???

And the year before that Calgary was the best 10th place team in the History of the league with a +13 goals diff and were a shoe in for the playoff in 2011-12.

The big difference in Montreal last year was the Hockey ops were in a mess as they had an English speaking coach.


They changed back to a Pure Laine Quebecois.... Hartley might have fit BUT his name sounded too English.

Maybe the Flames are being punished/cursed for tuning their back on red-neck hard working no-nonsense Albertans.


When Davidson was available Edwards should have made him an offer to take over all hockey ops. What a missed opportunity.

In this cap league it is all about value for money...... Flames did not have it for the last 4-5 years BUT next year the page is clean.... they have as much cap space to work with as anyone else and actually more available money to spend than most.

[d_phaneuf]

What I am saying is that the Canadiens are a different situation than the Flames

the Habs had a goalie to build around

3 strong centers for their roles, 2 excellent d men (remember Markov was injured most of last year) and have had some excellent secondary contributions from draft picks, and good depth

The Flames have a goalie who from everything you hear is about to retire, and question marks after that

1 centre in Backlund (jury is still out whethere he's a 2nd or 3rd liner), Giordano (although based on reading a lot of people here say he's been horrible this year) and so far no real contributions from draft picks outside Brodie

can't compare the two situations

with the extra picks the Flames are on their way to a rebuild, but to expect them to bounce up to the top of the conference next year like the Habs is too much

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

What I am saying is that the Canadiens are a different situation than the Flames

the Habs had a goalie to build around

3 strong centers for their roles, 2 excellent d men (remember Markov was injured most of last year) and have had some excellent secondary contributions from draft picks, and good depth

The Flames have a goalie who from everything you hear is about to retire, and question marks after that

1 centre in Backlund (jury is still out whethere he's a 2nd or 3rd liner), Giordano (although based on reading a lot of people here say he's been horrible this year) and so far no real contributions from draft picks outside Brodie

can't compare the two situations

with the extra picks the Flames are on their way to a rebuild, but to expect them to bounce up to the top of the conference next year like the Habs is too much

To expect them to be as bad as this year when you cleared almost 20M in cap space with Bouw, Iginla, Kipper being gone is expecting far too little.


Were these guys worth 20M/year over the last 2-3 years? The next season?

To put it perspective Minnesota got Parise and Suter for a cap hit of just over $15M/year.

[blender]

Have to agree with some of the points on both sides of the argument here. The Flames are BAD right now, no doubt about it. However, as with any team sport, there are many factors that combine to equal performance. I had thought of the Canadiens as an example of what could be possible, too, but I also worry about the management and ownership being unable to make the right adjustments.
I remember when the D Sutter was coaching there was talk about a team system were the individual players weren't important, it was the role they played and any player could be plugged into the spot at any time. I'm not sure this is actually true, but it is food for thought, even if it only applies to the third and fourth lines.
The Flames will have an infusion of top-end talent in the next 2-3 seasons, and I don't think it is out of hand to expect a reasonable level of competitiveness IF there is a team concept and a system that is designed around the team's strengths.

[Reggie28]

I would rather live with another non-playoff year next year with younger players, than a marginal team with old free agents, that doesn't have a realistic shot.

[Reggie28]

Top five draft in 2014 would be ok.

[HPLovecraft]

A classic case of paper meeting practice.

[sun]

What Montreal has that we don't - Norris candidate (Subban), Calder candidate (Gallagher - 3rd in pts for rookies), nearly PPG center (Plekanec), two goalies with .916 save percentage (one of whom may win the vezina some day and will likely start for team Canada), and a rookie center with ~0.5PPG. All of these players are under 25 (aside from Plekanec - 30). All of these players were drafted by the canadiens. Who are our comparables?

Teams who had quick turnarounds when they sold their assets had young, homegrown players ready to step in and make significant contributions - Giroux, Karlsson, Subban, etc.

We have one comparable - Baertschi. Our other prospects/young players are either too young (Gaudreau, Jankowski, Sieloff) or not on the same level (Brodie). Giordano is 29 and seemingly regressing.

While I don't think we'll bottom out again next year, we don't yet have the pieces in place to start thinking playoffs. Maybe if we get otherworldly goaltending... Either way, I don't see this as a team that will have a quick rebound. Our days of contending are certainly a long way off.

[t0rrent98]

If you look at it on paper for the rest of the season.. assuming none of these players get sent down or get injured, it looks alright going into the last 12 games of the season... This is what my line up would be if I were Hartley.

Baertschi - Backlund - Cammalleri
Hudler - Reinhart - Tanguay
Stempniak - Stajan - Cervenka
Jackman - Horak- McGratton
Begin


Wideman - Giordano
Brodie - Sarich
Butler - Carson
Babchuk

Kipprusoff
MacDonald

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by toquester

People like to assume that the Flames will blow it up and take a few years and turn out like Chicago. It is just as possible that they blow it up, and turn out like Atlanta. Blowing things up and starting from scratch guarantees nothing.

Start from scratch? Honestly, how much worse do you think it can get? We have a terrible team. The salary floor alone means it probably can't get much worse. If Hudler, Tanguay and the other veterans play out their contracts here, it's likely they'll never see another playoff game.

I get it that you're desperately trying to cling to something. But seriuusly, you'll be happier if you just let it go. The next Flames team to play (or heaven forfend, win) another playoff round is unlikely to feature more than two or three players on the current roster.