The Flames Not As Weak As Many Believe

[toquester]

I know the popular consensus appears to be that the Flames have completely fell apart since they shipped out Iginla and Bouwmeester, but I am not so sure. Considering the top players, they are still a pretty decent group.

Look at the forwards -
Glencross and Baerschi are a given, but Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler, Stempniak, Backlund and Stajan seem to be a pretty good group to build around and when you add players like Cervenka and Horak, it doesn't look that bad at all. All of that group has value and I would feel no inclination to want to "get rid" of any of them. Adding a drafted player from the top five, would only make them better in all liklihood. In that group, the only problem with a Drouin or MacKinnon is where do you put them? And then what do you do with someone like Gaudreau or a potential dark horse coming forward because one does just about every year.

Then on defence, Giordano and Brodie are the standouts but there is nothing much wrong with Wideman. I would not be dumping any of them for the sake of addition by subtraction either. One more top four defender and I would be comfortable with that group. And who is to say the Flames don't get the first player taken, likely Jones. Or with the money freed up with the recent moves, why not a free agent?

That leaves the goaltending position to worry about. From my perspective, this is the area where the team has been let down this year. Will Kipper rebound or do they have to do a lot of tinkering there? Only time is going to tell but the team has been collecting a number of goaltending prospects and if just one of them pans out, that problem could potentially be solved.

The moving of Iggy and Bouw provide the team with a real opportunity to improve over the long term. If the team completely tanks (which it appears it has done), who could blame them. All of these high profile player losses make a great excuse. And this in a year with a very strong draft. A top five pick along with a couple of later first rounders and a lot of cash to go after a free agent or two, plus the development of youngsters like Baerschi or Gaudreau and this team may be positioned better than it has been in years.

I am optimistic this is not going to be one of these lengthy rebuild ordeals at all. A few breaks and some good management and I believe things are about to change.

[nfotiu]

They are probably only a few pieces away from having an offence that can complete. The biggest weakness on this team is not having the goalie, defencemen, and defensive system to keep pucks out of our net.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Still a pretty decent group? That statement implies you thought this group was decent prior to the trades, which it was not.

The forwards you list are alright, true. But they aren't a build a team around list. You can come up with a decent 2nd and 3rd line from the bunch, but the problem still remains that there are literally no 1st line players in that bunch, which is key.

The D, while I agree I like the three guys you mentioned, they also lack top pairing guys. Brodie may develop into that, so patience is the name of the game with him. Gio and Wideman and no better than #4 guys 5 on 5, with Wideman being a PP guy as well. All key guys to have going forward, but lacking real top line D men to build around.

Agreed the goaltending is a mess.

We've started a rebuild, so I fully expect some tough times, but this team really is as bad as folks seem to I think IMO.

[kipperfan]

LoL, your post is 6 days late OP, April Fool's day was last Monday.

They are not a "decent group", they are probably the worst NHL team I have ever had the pleasure of watching regularly and are certainly the worst team the Flames franchise has ever iced. I would be willing and happy to get rid of most of them, many for nothing at all. I predict this rebuild will be rather long, mostly due to management/ownership constantly trying to speed it up.

Edit: I do like Brodie, Backlund and (last night) Max...so a few bright spots I guess.

[bluloc]

12 straight road loses. Usually get out shot 2-1 ish most nights sometimes more. Horrendous defensively,! Yap almost there. Thanks needed a good laugh.

[StrykerSteve]

Op, this group you claim is not as bad as everyone seems to think they are, have collectively managed the worst record in the league over the course of a season. Stopp kidding yourself because of a few solid efforts, this team is not good.

[toquester]

Well, I consider a team like Edmonton who began to rebuild with a defense completely in shambles and players like Horcoff underperforming and management bungling it with players like Glencross and I have to think the Flames are nowhere near that predicament.

The players I mentioned previously, have all had a pretty decent year overall as individuals. Add some capable and consistent goaltending over the year, and you may be looking at an entirely different scenario.

[Caged Great]

Pretty much every player on this team over the age of Mikael Backlund will not be here once the Flames are competitive again.

Once players like Baertschi, Gaudreau, Jankowski, 1st round pick, etc start taking spots away from the other top 6 players, we'll find that we have too many players for not enough spots for them and the vets, which will lead to the vets getting dealt for other areas that are weak (namely prospects)

We have only one guy that's consistently playing like a top 4 defenseman in Brodie, and other than Glencross we have no top 9 forward that is playing so well that they're necessary to keep in their top 9 role in a couple seasons.

This team is basically the Columbus Blue Jackets circa 2002. We have a couple decent but unspectacular vets, and a couple prospects playing on the team. Nothing to write home about. At least we have 3 firsts, which we can hope can be parlayed into some additional good young players to join our club.

We are not going to be getting out of the wilderness any time soon.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by toquester

Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler, Stempniak, Backlund and Stajan seem to be a pretty good group to build around

That's insane. They are HORRIBLE group to build around.

Stempniak is 30 and he only scored 20 goals twice in his career and never had 60-points season.

Stajan is 29 and his career-high is 16 goals a season.

Backlund may develop into good 3rd line center, at best maybe decent second line center, but this far his career high is bloody 10 goals per season.

Hudler is 29 years old who NEVER cracked 60 points and only has two 20+ goals seasons.

Tanguay is 33 and has one 60+ points season in last 6 seasons. Not to mention he never scored 30 goals.

Cammalleri is vastly overpaid, 30 years old and only cracked 60 points once in last 7 seasons.

If you think this is good group to build around, you should e-mail your resume to Flames owners, they may hire you as Feaster's replacement.

[toquester]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

The forwards you list are alright, true. But they aren't a build a team around list. You can come up with a decent 2nd and 3rd line from the bunch, but the problem still remains that there are literally no 1st line players in that bunch, which is key.

I agree that the team needs a highly skilled, can't miss star or two who are motivated and never give up to lead them out of this. IMHO, that is the key element missing.

Although this will not make me popular, this is the element Iginla has not shown in years.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by toquester

Well, I consider a team like Edmonton who began to rebuild with a defense completely in shambles and players like Horcoff underperforming and management bungling it with players like Glencross and I have to think the Flames are nowhere near that predicament.

The players I mentioned previously, have all had a pretty decent year overall as individuals. Add some capable and consistent goaltending over the year, and you may be looking at an entirely different scenario.

While I agree with you that many mistakes were made (and continue to be made) up north during their rebuild, I don't agree that this team is in a much better spot then Edmonton was 3-4 years ago.

The sad reality for this team is that they no longer have any elite talent. Not in net (sorry Kipper, I love you, but you're not elite anymore), not on defence (maybe Brodie will be, but isn't yet) and certainly not up front. Feaster and Edwards can bring in all the "decent" players they want, but a collection of 20-25 goal scoring spare parts will not an elite team make. The Flames need elite talent, they realistically do not have the assets to trade for it, you can look to the UFA market and see it doesn't exist there, not this year anyways, so they will have to draft and develop it....which takes time. This thing is definitely going to take some time.

[Caged Great]

As evidence, this team has been entirely out classed in each of the games we've played since Iginla was dealt, and each game, the only lines that have been performing mostly are the bangers and the young players. Guys like Tanguay Stempniak, Cammalleri, and Glencross have been mostly invisible. If those are the guys you're relying on to carry you forward, you're screwed as a team and organization. The whole team needs to be burnt to the ground so new seeds can grow.

[Table 5]

There are a lot of decent individuals who aren't as bad as many believe, but they as a team, are indeed pretty bad. Ok ingredients, terrible recipe.

[bubbsy]

Ya, not sure i agree at all.

What the last few games has shown me is that Iginla/Bouwmeester weren't really the top players that took this team to satisfactory quality.

They were below avg at best with that 12+ million, and are marginally worse now. It has also showed me that the next tier of players on this roster (tanguay, cammalleri, giordano, wideman) can't be relied on as guys who can live up to filling the talent/leadership roles on this team.

I realize that moving tanguay/cammalleri at this stage was likely difficult, but why giordano is being groomed as the top dog here baffles me. His level of play has drastically decreased over the last year or so. I would have been very curious what teams like philly that are looking for answers on the Dline would have been willing to part with to get Giordano and hope he can rebound in a new situation.

anyways. flames suck now (13 straight road losses or something, no??), and i just don't see how they improve, even marginally, next season. Flames pick top 5 in the 2013 draft, and are likely picking top 5 in the 2014 draft.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Table 5

There are a lot of decent individuals who aren't as bad as many believe, but they as a team, are indeed pretty bad. Ok ingredients, terrible recipe.

Our individuals had no success on other teams before coming to the Flames either. To some extent Hudler is exception, but Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glencross, Stempniak all sucked in their previous teams before arriving here. This points our that they, individually, are about as bad, as many believe.

[toquester]

They not only had success on other teams, but they have had success on this team, this year. It was the team that had no success.

The Flames have the worst GAA in the league. You can't blame that on the forwards. Let me qualify that. You can blame that on the forwards and the system, but no matter how well you play defensively, if every time the team makes a mistake, the puck is in the net, you give up. That is the way things have been this year.

And when do goalies start taking some heat for this mess?

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by toquester

They not only had success on other teams, but they have had success on this team, this year. It was the team that had no success.

The Flames have the worst GAA in the league. You can't blame that on the forwards.

And when do goalies start taking some heat for this mess?

The goalies have been crap, but let's be honest, the forwards are pretty high on the blame list for this stat.

[FBI]

I like the idea of this thread but unfortunately can't buy it. We are bad bad bad.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by toquester

They not only had success on other teams, but they have had success on this team, this year. It was the team that had no success.

Stats before coming to the Flames:

Stempniak 19g 38p
Glencross 15g 25p
Tanguay 10g 37p
Cammalleri 9g 22p

Hudler is exception with 25g and 50p. Stajan surprisingly was on pace for a decent season before coming here.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Our individuals had no success on other teams before coming to the Flames either. To some extent Hudler is exception, but Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glencross, Stempniak all sucked in their previous teams before arriving here. This points our that they, individually, are about as bad, as many believe.

Do you have a short memory? Cammalleri was pretty good in LA, Tanguay was very good before coming to Calgary, Stempniak had had a lot of success previously. Glencross was a role player before he got here, that's it.

3 problems as I see it:

-Aging players are never as good as they were (insert post Apex joke here)
-Very often in hockey the team does NOT equal the sum of its parts. So many examples of this, but the best example is the many dream teams the Rangers would make and fail with in the 90's
-Kipper is terrible this year. If Chicago got this kind of goaltending this year they'd be fighting for a playoff spot.

Team goal differential is a very strong predictor of future success, and outs is close to league worst. That's your proof of how good of a team we have