Article: The Rebuild Begins. With That, A New Hope

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GettinIggyWithIt

[QUOTE

The road to success seems to be simple...... Good BIG players are >>>>>>>>> small skilled players.


Bourque >>> Cammalleri.... for instance.

You put up with Penner's attitude and work with him because you can't coach Stempniak to be 265 pounds.

I agree that this year's version of the Flames isn't nearly big or tough enough. In fact, I think we fell victim to having too many of the "same type of players".

But Bourque and Penner are not good examples in my opinion. We don't need big players that are useless, lazy and difficult to motivate -especially not at their price tags. Bourque and Penner aren't going to make teams competitive. Both Montreal and LA have much better examples of big, strong forwards that contribute to their team. I'd much rather have Cammaleri over Bourque and Stempniak over Penner but I wouldn't want a team full of those guys and no bigger bodies to wear down the opposition.

You could make an argument for Cammalleri over Bourque as Cammalleri did have a great playoff year.....

BUT Penner has 30 points in 60 playoff games and 2 Stanley cup rings.

Stempniak has totally disappeared in his 11 playoff games with 2 assists. Stempniak was THE scoring leader for Phx going into the playoffs and totally disappeared..... That was a big reason the Yotes gave him away and took langkow off the Flames salary cap.


I would venture to say that Penner gets far more motivated and plays at a higher level in important games and Stempniak is the one that does not step up... or just is unable to.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by FAN

Ya but...

5. Thou shalt not shamelessly self-promote. In other words, no advertising, no posting of affiliate links, and no posting personal links to games where generating traffic is involved in winning. If you want to pay to advertise a business or site, contact Bingo. Posting a "Hey come to my site" thread with your first post is bad. Putting a link to your site in your sig is ok. If in doubt, ask first.

It was an article about the Flames and this site lives off of user-created content.

At least he wrote something that created decent conversation. You on the other hand come across as pompus...pretty sure Mods can take care of these situations.

You are like Campus Security...no actual authority but you love the power trip.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You could make an argument for Cammalleri over Bourque as Cammalleri did have a great playoff year.....

BUT Penner has 30 points in 60 playoff games and 2 Stanley cup rings.

Stempniak has totally disappeared in his 11 playoff games with 2 assists. Stempniak was THE scoring leader for Phx going into the playoffs and totally disappeared..... That was a big reason the Yotes gave him away and took langkow off the Flames salary cap.


I would venture to say that Penner gets far more motivated and plays at a higher level in important games and Stempniak is the one that does not step up... or just is unable to.

I don't particularly like to look at playoff performances for individual players in isolation. This works for players who consistently have success in the post season, while for the vast majority of NHLers who play regularly in the playoffs, they will quite often show a mix of results ranging terrific performances to poor ones. The Sedins have had some very good playoff years and some very poor ones. Datsyuk was once considered a poor playoff performer before becoming a regular contender for the Conn Smythe. Penner was invisible in his first playoff showing, and Brad Marchand went from playoff hero to a no-show.

There is not nearly enough evidence from Cammalleri, Penner, or Stempniak to make a determination of their relative value based on their playoff histories.

[UKflames]

Interesting read, thank you for the link.

Why peopole feel the need to bash someone who has taken the time to write an article/comment, be it about the flames or whatever, which is more than a few lines on a forum is beyond me. I don't see them taking the time to put anything of substance together.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by simmer2

It was an article about the Flames and this site lives off of user-created content.

At least he wrote something that created decent conversation. You on the other hand come across as pompus...pretty sure Mods can take care of these situations.

You are like Campus Security...no actual authority but you love the power trip.

I'm not power tripping at all and I didn't intend to come across as pompous. Caged Great asked what we thought of the article and I gave my honest opinion, which I felt were fair. I notice that he has promoted the articles he wrote a lot recently on this site and I respectfully asked him to simply post what he wrote instead of directing traffic off the site. He responded by quoting a user guideline and claiming he didn't own the copyright even though he wrote it. I responded by quoted a different user guideline saying no self-promotion.

If Caged Great had seeked permission to promote and link his articles then I appologize and have no problem with it. But from my perspective hey he's a member here, why not express his opinion here, include his blog in his sig, and then write whatever he wants elsewhere? To be fair, if I have a blog of my own, I don't think it's fair for me to make a thread about every article I wrote and direct traffic to my site.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Originally Posted by FAN

I'm not power tripping at all and I didn't intend to come across as pompous. Caged Great asked what we thought of the article and I gave my honest opinion, which I felt were fair. I notice that he has promoted the articles he wrote a lot recently on this site and I respectfully asked him to simply post what he wrote instead of directing traffic off the site. He responded by quoting a user guideline and claiming he didn't own the copyright even though he wrote it. I responded by quoted a different user guideline saying no self-promotion.

If Caged Great had seeked permission to promote and link his articles then I appologize and have no problem with it. But from my perspective hey he's a member here, why not express his opinion here, include his blog in his sig, and then write whatever he wants elsewhere? To be fair, if I have a blog of my own, I don't think it's fair for me to make a thread about every article I wrote and direct traffic to my site.

Simmer2 is correct, you do come off as pompous. Just because CG asked for the thoughts of members on his post doesn't mean you have to be arrogant and badger him.

CG is adding to the CP experience and he is doing it the right way. Other posters have provided helpful critical opinions whereas you took advantage of CGs offer for thoughts and acted like a _________. (a wealth of descriptive words are appropriate here and none are positive)

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by FAN

I'm not power tripping at all and I didn't intend to come across as pompous. Caged Great asked what we thought of the article and I gave my honest opinion, which I felt were fair. I notice that he has promoted the articles he wrote a lot recently on this site and I respectfully asked him to simply post what he wrote instead of directing traffic off the site. He responded by quoting a user guideline and claiming he didn't own the copyright even though he wrote it. I responded by quoted a different user guideline saying no self-promotion.

If Caged Great had seeked permission to promote and link his articles then I appologize and have no problem with it. But from my perspective hey he's a member here, why not express his opinion here, include his blog in his sig, and then write whatever he wants elsewhere? To be fair, if I have a blog of my own, I don't think it's fair for me to make a thread about every article I wrote and direct traffic to my site.

So basically he told you why he didn't post the article directly into CP (copyright), and then you tried to find ANOTHER reason for him to not provide it.

How about you let the Mods handle it, and skip over his articles if you don't want them? Then these threads don't get derailed.

I acknowledge you provided actual feedback in your first post.

[Flashpoint]

There is little doubt the Flames have become the softest team in the NHL. Look no further than our goalies being run basically every game. To me, there was a reason to keep Regehr (hindsight 20/20), but I suppose Sarich hasn't been able to fill that role either.

Iginla did his best this season to step up, but it was embarassing to look at our team and watch them get pushed around. Having thugs like Jackman and McGratton doesn't do much because they don't play enough to matter - other teams know they aren't going to see the ice at critical times.

I get that Feaster wanted to create a "safe is death" skill team. And early on the Flames were scoring pretty well (#1PP). But when the other team knows they can walk all over you for 60 minutes, and Iggy will put himself in the box in trying to respond, the gameplan gets pretty simple. So I'd love to see a return to the 04 model of lower scoring, but tough as nails to play against. Obviously that relies on a top flight goalie.

As far as the article goes, I'm not sure you can draw a corollary between Pits/Chi/Bos without looking at the other teams that won championships in that time. They are all going to be good blends of size, skill, and for the most part, goaltending (Chi the exception - had Philly had even average netminding they would have lost).

You are correct you win championships via the draft. And bigger = better because you can stand up to the rigours of the post season. But you're cherry picking how the teams were built, and ignoring some of the moves (Kessle, Schenn). So I don't agree you must start with D and G then add talent to win.

Looking at the 04 Flames, it was the addition of a goalie (basically last) that pushed them all the way to the finals. Lightning in a bottle on a defensively sound team that had just enough scoring from clutch guys (Iginla, Gelinas, Clarke) to win 1-0, 2-1 games. So I don't feel there is a formula.

[fredr123]

There is a faint glimmer of hope that a Flames rebuild might not take quite as long as elsewhere (assuming we all agree the rebuild began with the Iggy trade and the date doesn't keep moving as with the rebuild in Edmonton).

This year, the Flames will have a top 1-5 pick in the draft. Presumably, a player taken in that range will be a top flight prospect in need of little development time before he is ready for the NHL full time. Maybe we see him in action next season, maybe the season after. Either way, he is probably ready sooner than the other picks Calgary has made over the past two seasons. Those guys probably need more grooming and development.

By the time the crop of guys taken in the last few seasons is ready for NHL action, this year's stud will be ready to contribute in a big way. This will allow management to round out what could be a balanced roster with other top flight talent (e.g., UFA signings) and build a competitive team in short order.

Of course, for this to happen a lot of things will have to fall into place and luck will have to favour the team. The Flames will also have to avoid finding the next Patrick Stefan in this year's draft which is not something I would rule out when Feaster and Co are in charge of things.

[Rudee]

Feaster was right. It's not a rebuild. It's a retool. We still have a considerable amount of underachievers on the roster that we failed to trade at the deadline. Not a rebuild when you only get rid of 3 players, even if one is Iginla and other is Jaybo. It's a retool. A proper rebuild involves greater percentage of players.

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

There is little doubt the Flames have become the softest team in the NHL.

About time that somebody else notices. For years, several OP's have gotten wrapped up in the anti-fighting major propaganda from the Canadian media. Their contributions are always the same. "Overall team toughness is fine." Yeah, right. The Flames haven't been feared since at least '05.

[nik-]

I like the work, but please rethink the white font on black background.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't particularly like to look at playoff performances for individual players in isolation. This works for players who consistently have success in the post season, while for the vast majority of NHLers who play regularly in the playoffs, they will quite often show a mix of results ranging terrific performances to poor ones. The Sedins have had some very good playoff years and some very poor ones. Datsyuk was once considered a poor playoff performer before becoming a regular contender for the Conn Smythe. Penner was invisible in his first playoff showing, and Brad Marchand went from playoff hero to a no-show.

There is not nearly enough evidence from Cammalleri, Penner, or Stempniak to make a determination of their relative value based on their playoff histories.

Penner in his first playoffs 05-06 had 19 NHL games under his belt with 4 goals and 3 assists. He played in 13 playoff games that year scoring 3 times and getting 9 points. Pretty good showing for an AHL player.

While not quite Claude Lemieux playoff legendary there probable no other player that plays so much better than Penner in the playoffs relative to the regular season.

He was invisible in 2010-11 when SJ beat LA in round 1 in 6 games.... The Kings were missing Kopitar who had a broken ankle so the Kings were basically outgunned overall in the series.

[GettinIggyWithIt]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You could make an argument for Cammalleri over Bourque as Cammalleri did have a great playoff year.....

BUT Penner has 30 points in 60 playoff games and 2 Stanley cup rings.

Stempniak has totally disappeared in his 11 playoff games with 2 assists. Stempniak was THE scoring leader for Phx going into the playoffs and totally disappeared..... That was a big reason the Yotes gave him away and took langkow off the Flames salary cap.


I would venture to say that Penner gets far more motivated and plays at a higher level in important games and Stempniak is the one that does not step up... or just is unable to.

Penner does have 2 cup rings but I would say that this is more a product of the teams he's played on than his individual play in the playoffs. For example, when the Ducks won the Cup he wasn't nearly as much a force as he should have been for them.


Regardless, I think we both agree about the need for some bigger, tougher bodies in the lineup for next year and beyond. The balance of skill, size and toughness wasn't there this year.

[FacePaint]

Thanks for the great read. I think it would similarly be interesting to compare the Flames situation to the Islanders, Oilers, Jackets etc of this world as a balance

[Jake]

Originally Posted by GettinIggyWithIt

Penner does have 2 cup rings but I would say that this is more a product of the teams he's played on than his individual play in the playoffs. For example, when the Ducks won the Cup he wasn't nearly as much a force as he should have been for them.


Regardless, I think we both agree about the need for some bigger, tougher bodies in the lineup for next year and beyond. The balance of skill, size and toughness wasn't there this year.

It is hard to imagine next years team being any tougher unless Feaster makes a a couple of trades. We simply have too many small, low intensity players taking up roster spots at the moment.

Cammalleri-Stajan-Hudler
Glencross-Backlund-Stempniak
Tanguay-Horak-Jackman
Baertschi-???-???

To make this team significantly harder to play against next year, IMO Feaster needs to trade away Tanguay and maybe Stajan or Cammalleri, and replace them with players like Clowe, Stalberg, Bickell, Clarkson, Cooke etc (all free agents).

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by FacePaint

Thanks for the great read. I think it would similarly be interesting to compare the Flames situation to the Islanders, Oilers, Jackets etc of this world as a balance

The Oilers draft Petry in the 2nd round in 06, followed by Gagner the next year. In 08, Eberle and Hartikainen (6th) and after that the only guys that have made the NHL are the guys they selected first overall.

Other than Schultz, who fell into their lap, and Petry, they haven't acquired any young defensemen to develop on their team. Whether or not any of their picks from the last 4 years pan out is yet to be determined.

They also only really have Dubnyk in the goalie pipeline, and they haven't really drafted any role players.



The Isles drafted Okposo and Andrew Macdonald in 06, Hamonic, Martin, and Bailey in 08, Tavares and Cizikas in 09, and nothing else really to show in 10, 11 or 12 in the NHL.

They are doing slightly better now though due to having both Tavares being awesome and having some character guys in Martin and Cizikas as well as a solid top 4 of Streit Hamonic Vishnovsky and MacDonald.



The Blue jackets have blown it up so many times that it's kind of a mess. They are doing better though this year as they have Bobrovsky and a solid defense core even though they can't score much.

It seems that teams that have rebuilt over a duration of 5 years, the ones that get solid defense, and solid 3rd line leadership types end up coming through their rebuild slightly faster and with better results than teams that try to plug in potential superstars and hope it just works. Those teams seem to spin their wheels and can't really gain any traction.

It seems like the only way you begin to get traction is if you begin to develop defensemen and lower line leader types in addition to skill. Skill in and of itself doesn't seem to have an impact.

[powerguard18]

I thought it was a good article. It didn't need any crap in it Charts, pictures etc. yes it jazzes things up a bit, but it was fine. good breakdowns of the teams that have recently won

you guys got some talented young players but it seems they always draft the same small forwards. they are either 5'11" or 6'2" and 180 lbs

with the money and pics you guys have I don't see why they can't build a contending team in a few yrs.

In Boston we really don't have any superstars but we have a lot of tough guys that have some skill. we really only just got 2 soon to be superstars. we won a cup because we had 3 decent lines, big hitting defenseman, and Thomas standing on his head.
other than our team being deep and all willing to play defensive hockey, we were 1 goal away in numerous games from being bounced out of the playoffs.
A little luck helps too.

[FlameZilla]

The previous regimes have had plenty of opportunities to draft well and avoid a rebuilding scenario. As CG mentions in his very well-written article, these teams found many of their cornerstone players in later rounds, or late in the first round. What sticks out the most to me is that successful franchises, whether they're rebuilding or not, consistently find roster players whether they're picking top 10, 30th or in rounds 2 through 5.

Sure, we've never drafted high enough to land a Crosby or a Kane, but our management had every opportunity to pick up many of these other players you mentioned as part of the various successful rebuilds; Patrice Bergeron, Kris Letang, James Neal, Jon Quick, Patrick Sharp, Dave Bolland, Duncan Keith etc could have just as easily been useful cogs in our team. Had it not been for picks like Chucko, Pelech, Baldwin, Ramholt, Krahn and any number of wasted opportunities we might not have ended up in the position where we had to deal away our franchise's all-time biggest star last week.

Now many will say that was a previous regime which wasted all those picks, but I see the same scouting staff listed, and the same head of scouting. Our recent draft record does appear to be better, but we've heard that all before back in the '90s with huge busts like Tkaczuk and Fata.

If we're going to truly rebuild then I think we need to coax some of these scouts from teams with excellent draft records to join the organisation. I like Weisbrod, but he's not really a hockey guy & he's rolling with a Moneyball-style stats-based philosophy, which works to a certain extent but I'm not sold on it. We need hockey minds to compliment the stats & legal minds that are running the team. Otherwise we waste this opportunity with bad picks and even worse asset management.

That's also the chicken-or-the-egg question: are we just piss poor at drafting, or are we also not letting these kids develop and mature properly into the players they were touted to become? Think of Marty St Louis who played 5 minutes a game on our 4th line and was let walk away for nothing. Look what he went on to become when he moved onto greener pastures. I have a funny feeling about Leland Irving. I think he could sign with some other team this off season that shows him even the smallest amount of patience, support & confidence & he could go on to become a legit starter in this league. Unless the Flames organisation has entirely ruined his confidence & will to compete he still has the tools he always had to be a good goalie. It's poor asset management by the team to treat a prospect how he has been treated. It's not any one person's fault, but the way the organisation as a whole is run tends to chew up promising young players and spit them out as ECHL/Swiss league fodder. Or perhaps they weren't nearly as promising prospects as they seemed? It's hard to know for sure until we start getting results.

There is absolutely no excuse for us to be in this situation. Rant over.

[FacePaint]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The Oilers draft Petry in the 2nd round in 06, followed by Gagner the next year. In 08, Eberle and Hartikainen (6th) and after that the only guys that have made the NHL are the guys they selected first overall.

Other than Schultz, who fell into their lap, and Petry, they haven't acquired any young defensemen to develop on their team. Whether or not any of their picks from the last 4 years pan out is yet to be determined.

They also only really have Dubnyk in the goalie pipeline, and they haven't really drafted any rol

I appreciate your input and this actually makes these dark days somewhat interesting. I will continue with the devils advocate... The Flames draft Wootherspoon in the 2nd round (12) followed by Barkov (eg) the next year. In `15... Etc, etc...

This could get really bad, agree? If this draft is Oilers of '06... It could get real ugly