Calgary Flames: No Post Apex Plan (N-PAP)

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Ring of Fire

Feaster specifically said on the Fan they were going to target Group II free agents (aka Restricted Free Agents). With the cap going down, Feaster suggested players making sub $1 million would be looking in a $3 million ballpark and teams would not be able to afford all the raises. The Rangers for example have numerous enticing RFAs. Feaster would be targetting these players by trade around the draft.

Feaster will not be the only team going this route and i don't know the flames have the prospect base to make such trades. Other than the 2 late firsts, the flames really have nothing else to offer, unless they are trading Sven. Brodie will be gettting a raise so that takes him out of the scenario.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

And here is where we start talking about defining terms

It's never going to be defined. What's the upside to providing a definition? Giving an opening for a bunch of historantic folk to whine if you ever make an exception? Or if they just don't like your definition?

I'm just going to assume it generally means no contracts that end after the player is 32 (Defining apex as 27-31 with anything before that as pre or after that as post) with a possible exception for late bloomers (The Tim Thomas Exception).

I'm fine with that personally.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Don't see Tanguay bringing back anything let alone a young dman who still has loads of potential.

Pre-Apex players: Barely fit the criteria, my best guess.

Ville Leino
Tyler Myers
Tuomo Ruutu
Paul Stastny
Kyle Okposo
Scottie Upshall
Guilluame Lattendresse
Makhail Gbabovski
David Booth

Just a wild guess as to some who might marginally fit the criteria. Some of them likely don't get bought out and traded for some return.

I do think when looking at a guy like Myers it would be a package, and I just brought him up as an example.

But doing the Math right now Buffalo will likely be about $1M over the cap.

And he has not been in the good books with Management.

They may find it attractive to take something like Tanguay, Butler, and a pick.

Butler is a Buffalo guy, they may still have expectation of him.

I think from the Flames Stand point the pick would have to be in that 25 - 45 range at best, and we don't even know if they have a pick in that range yet. So there are allot of moving parts.

But it was just a suggestion of the type of deal that the Flames could/should be looking at.

You also have to remember that Myers has 6 years left on a contract that looks pretty bad right now, so that could lower his value.

[#-3]

I think isn't hard to understand what Feaster meant by Apex

Pre-Apex - Players that should still improve

At-Apex - Players currently at their best, no longer improving, not getting worse yet.

Post-Apex - Players that can no longer play as well as they have in the past.

It is not an age range thing. But generally:

Forwards Apex = ~24 - 31 Years Old
Defence Apex = ~27 - 33 Years Old
Goalies Apex = ~26 - 35 Years Old

More so with Goalies, but it is different for every player. Cammaleri's "Apex" was probably 23 - 29 years old, while St Louis was probably 27 - 37 years old.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Parallex

It's never going to be defined. What's the upside to providing a definition? Giving an opening for a bunch of historantic folk to whine if you ever make an exception? Or if they just don't like your definition?

I'm just going to assume it generally means no contracts that end after the player is 32 (Defining apex as 27-31 with anything before that as pre or after that as post) with a possible exception for late bloomers (The Tim Thomas Exception).

I'm fine with that personally.

That sounds amazingly like business as usual.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That sounds amazingly like business as usual.

Now that you've got that out of your system hopefully this thread can stay on topic from now on.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Feaster will not be the only team going this route and i don't know the flames have the prospect base to make such trades. Other than the 2 late firsts, the flames really have nothing else to offer, unless they are trading Sven. Brodie will be gettting a raise so that takes him out of the scenario.

Yeah, it's not like this is some unheard of strategy. If all these quality RFAs become available, we still have to outbid other teams and they have a lot more prospects to dish out than we do. For teams looking to get under cap, they're probably a lot more concerned with getting an NHL-close prospect back than a late first round pick.

[timbit]

Another new phrase with enough ambiguity and wide enough parameters to keep the masses interested/ confused.

Guess it does 't matter, as long as they are committed to doing this lengthy rebuild the right way.

[JayP]

The problem is that it's nearly impossible to get a UFA that matches Feasters "no post-apex players strategy" because the term you have to commit to to get them buys up a lot of those post-apex years.

Let's be generous and call a player's last prime year age 30. Now consider a guy like Stephen Weiss - impact player who's still at the end of his "apex". Except if we want to sign him as a UFA, you're going to have to offer him a 4+ year deal or he'll sign somewhere else. That basically means you're paying for 1 apex year, and then 3 post-apex years.

It's the same problem with Hudler & Wideman - you can consider them still in their apex, but by the end of the deal they'll be years removed from that. It's precisely why "building" through free agency doesn't work and it's strategy that inevitably ends up with team exactly like the current team.

Sure, Feaster could go after some RFAs, but the only currency we have are the 2 additional first rounders and that basically puts us right at square one. Trading away the little we traded away for the future for a short-term fix on an RFA that a team didn't feel was necessary to explore all possible options to keep. If the RFA was really that valuable, they'd use a compliance buyout or just dump a bad contract on the Islanders (or similar) and give up a mid-range pick for their troubles.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by timbit

Another new phrase with enough ambiguity and wide enough parameters to keep the masses interested/ confused.

Guess it does 't matter, as long as they are committed to doing this lengthy rebuild the right way.

Based on the Bouwmeester trade, the Flames clearly value a couple million of extra cap space over a better prospect in return. Teams committed to a rebuild don't do things like this.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by JayP

Based on the Bouwmeester trade, the Flames clearly value a couple million of extra cap space over a better prospect in return. Teams committed to a rebuild don't do things like this.

Well, that's not true. That extra cap space can easily be used later on to bring in a bad contract and a draft pick our way.

I think some of you need to accept there are several ways to do the same thing, several ways to rebuild a team and just because the Flames are whoever don't do it exactly as you wish, exactly as you had it in your head, step-by-step, it's wrong.

Extra cap space going forward seems to be extremely valuable. If the Flames use that cap space to bring back a 2nd round pick the way Kotalik did for the Sabres then it flies directly in the face of what you just said.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by JayP

Based on the Bouwmeester trade, the Flames clearly value a couple million of extra cap space over a better prospect in return. Teams committed to a rebuild don't do things like this.

Which pick/prospect was actually being offered that the Flames turned down?

What is the dollar value of said pick/prospect?

For all we know the Blues wanted us to take half of Bouwmeeter's salary in order to take the condition off the pick (in my opinion, not worth it).

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well, that's not true. That extra cap space can easily be used later on to bring in a bad contract and a draft pick our way.

I think some of you need to accept there are several ways to do the same thing, several ways to rebuild a team and just because the Flames are whoever don't do it exactly as you wish, exactly as you had it in your head, step-by-step, it's wrong.

Extra cap space going forward seems to be extremely valuable. If the Flames use that cap space to bring back a 2nd round pick the way Kotalik did for the Sabres then it flies directly in the face of what you just said.

Not saying you are wrong because that is certainly one route to take, but it seems like a more compicated and harder route to go.

Most media and posters thought that the flames would eat some salary to get a better prospect back. That would jive with Ken Kings statement of rebuilding as fast as they can.

If they go the route you are suggesting they would probably get a 2nd or 3rd round pick to take on a bad contract. That pick will take longer to develop than a prospect a year away from skating in the bigs.

If they trade for a bad contract and a prospect instead of a pick, then they are taking on 2 contracts on the 50 limit. All they had to do was eat some money and get the 1 contract back.

If they go the RFA route with the money, they still have to give up a good prospect or pick to get him. It's not like these teams in cap trouble are going to give them out for free. I don't think the flames have the prospects to do it.

To me ( and it could just be me) it seems that they want the money to spend in UFA on the 27-30 year old player. This is what they have done in the past, ie Hudler and Wideman. Feaster seems to have given a shiny new word (apex) to basically what they were doing before.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well, that's not true. That extra cap space can easily be used later on to bring in a bad contract and a draft pick our way.

I think some of you need to accept there are several ways to do the same thing, several ways to rebuild a team and just because the Flames are whoever don't do it exactly as you wish, exactly as you had it in your head, step-by-step, it's wrong.

Extra cap space going forward seems to be extremely valuable. If the Flames use that cap space to bring back a 2nd round pick the way Kotalik did for the Sabres then it flies directly in the face of what you just said.

I would agree with you completely except Feaster outright said they weren't interested in taking on other team's dead weight in one of his interviews yesterday (either the press conference or the Fan960 interview).

I agree that cap space can be very valuable to a rebuild and actually suggested to some friends that this is what they should look at doing. Acquire some guys like Briere that help a team free up some cap space, take a 2nd rounder back, and have decent NHL veteran to fill out the roster. But Feaster outright said that he isn't looking to do this so until it happens I'm assuming the Flames won't.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Which pick/prospect was actually being offered that the Flames turned down?

What is the dollar value of said pick/prospect?

For all we know the Blues wanted us to take half of Bouwmeeter's salary in order to take the condition off the pick (in my opinion, not worth it).

We obviously don't know the prospects involved, but it was reported that the Flames made clear it they weren't picking up any salary. Hey, it could be wrong, but I believe it was LeBrun that reported it and that hardly seems like something worth inventing.

And I would say your example is a bit of an exaggeration. The Flames pick up half of J-Bouw's salary and suddenly he's a lot more affordable to a lot more teams and you actually get a bidding war.

[Roof-Daddy]

Three players I'd like to see the Flames aim for via trades, that are possibly avalilable and IMO are young enough to help next season and beyond are:

Paul Stastny - 27 year old center, his big cap hit doesn't matter anymore, and next year is his contract year. If he fits in, he could probably be resigned to a more cap friendly deal moving forward.

Tyler Myers - 23 year old former Calder winner who has struggled for two seasons now. Don't know if he could be had, or for what but a change of scenery might be what he needs for a turn around. He's huge, mobile, capable of logging big minutes and definitely "pre-apex". Also a right handed shot, which is something our system sorely lacks going forward.

Jamie McBain - 25 year old D-man who was rumoured to be available. IMO he is a very similar player to Giordano, but has more offensive upside. Also a right handed shot, and just reaching his prime.

I don't know how things would/will shake out on the wings, but I'd be pretty happy if the Flames went into next season looking like this down the middle....

Stastny (27)
Backlund (24)
MacKinnon (18)

...and maybe snag a veteran, two way, good sized, physical 3rd/4th line center who is strong in the face off dot. (Eg. Boyd Gordon, Jerrod Smithson)

Then on D.....

Giordano (30) - Myers (23)
Brodie (23) - Wideman (29)
Breen (23) - McBain (25)

...Breen would be pretty much the only one really battling for his spot, as the rest are already proven NHL D-men.

[FlameZilla]

Within the organisation these are the moves I see happening.

RFAs to sign: Backlund, Bouma, Brodie, Butler & Breen. Maybe sign Byron since his name begins with B.
Sign Ramo, Ramage, Hanowski & Granlund ASAP
Sign UFAs Cervenka & McGrattan

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Nemisz, Byron, Aliu, Bancks, Cundari, Carson, Eddy & Lamb signed to cheap 2-way deals

We'll be set up like this (if Kipper doesn't retire):

Tanguay Cammalleri Hudler
Glenncross Stajan Stempniak
Baertschi Backlund Cervenka
Bouma Horak Jackman
McGrattan

Giordano Wideman
Brodie Sarich
Butler Smith
Breen

(Kiprussoff) Ramo
Berra

Prospects in the AHL:

Byron Street Nemisz
Bancks Reinhart Aliu
Howse Jones Eddy
Ferland Granlund Hanowski
Elson

Cundari Lamb
Martin Wotherspoon
Lamb Ramage

Brossoit
Ortio

I see us being very active at the draft, shopping Tanguay &/or Cammalleri for young NHL-ready help & picks. Management are going to want to keep one recognisable name & face around so I see Cammy or Tangs staying as the face of the franchise, unless they can deal for someone with a bit of star status.

We need lots of help at RW, C, D & G . Depending on the Kiprussoff situation I think we need a proven NHL starter, and I see Feaster (if he's still in charge) making a huge offer for someone he's familiar with, Mike Smith. We need another natural RW, so I'm sure we'll make offers for Horton, Fehr & that Ignila guy. Bozak might be someone we target. Clitsome is the only appealing name I see amongst the UFA defenders

So trade outgoings I would like to see happen are: Cammalleri or Tanguay, Butler and incoming I'd like a big right-shooting defender (Myers) and a big young centerman (Berglund). We could use one of our late first rounders to sweeten the pot to get a good, young player like that.

That's the Rock-Solid Plan

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Within the organisation these are the moves I see happening.

RFAs to sign: Backlund, Bouma, Brodie, Butler & Breen. Maybe sign Byron since his name begins with B.
Sign Ramo, Ramage, Hanowski & Granlund ASAP
Sign UFAs Cervenka & McGrattan

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Nemisz, Byron, Aliu, Bancks, Cundari, Carson, Eddy & Lamb signed to cheap 2-way deals

We'll be set up like this (if Kipper doesn't retire):

Tanguay Cammalleri Hudler
Glenncross Stajan Stempniak
Baertschi Backlund Cervenka
Bouma Horak Jackman
McGrattan

Giordano Wideman
Brodie Sarich
Butler Smith
Breen

(Kiprussoff) Ramo
Berra

Prospects in the AHL:

Byron Street Nemisz
Bancks Reinhart Aliu
Howse Jones Eddy
Ferland Granlund Hanowski
Elson

Cundari Lamb
Martin Wotherspoon
Lamb Ramage

Brossoit
Ortio

I see us being very active at the draft, shopping Tanguay &/or Cammalleri for young NHL-ready help & picks. Management are going to want to keep one recognisable name & face around so I see Cammy or Tangs staying as the face of the franchise, unless they can deal for someone with a bit of star status.

We need lots of help at RW, C, D & G . Depending on the Kiprussoff situation I think we need a proven NHL starter, and I see Feaster (if he's still in charge) making a huge offer for someone he's familiar with, Mike Smith. We need another natural RW, so I'm sure we'll make offers for Horton, Fehr & that Ignila guy. Bozak might be someone we target. Clitsome is the only appealing name I see amongst the UFA defenders

So trade outgoings I would like to see happen are: Cammalleri or Tanguay, Butler and incoming I'd like a big right-shooting defender (Myers) and a big young centerman (Berglund). We could use one of our late first rounders to sweeten the pot to get a good, young player like that.

That's the Rock-Solid Plan

So what you're saying, is you want the team to look basically the same next year as the one that could finish 30th this season. Yea, seems like a good plan.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by JayP

Based on the Bouwmeester trade, the Flames clearly value a couple million of extra cap space over a better prospect in return. Teams committed to a rebuild don't do things like this.

And we know this how? Was there a report that better prospects were on offer if the Flames ate salary or is that just fan speculation?

[dying4acup]

I'm ok with what's been said in theory, but if Feasters plan is to put all his eggs in this 1 draft (or god forbid trade some picks that he's just acquired), and then use 2014 picks for offer sheet or trade, this plan is flawed.

No team can bank on one draft to fix everything wrong with their team, let alone the flames team at this point in time. It's going to take at least 2-3 drafts to re-tool. And that's with average to above-average evaluation and drafting.