[News] Toronto and another team granted permission to talk to Kipper

[Captain_Obvious]

The fact he's been bad this year is shown in the stats plain as day.

But the fact teams are still interested goes to show GM's aren't so short sighted as to write him off because of a couple bad months.

He's shown last season he still has the goods. As a result, he still holds some value without a doubt.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

The fact he's been bad this year is shown in the stats plain as day.

But the fact teams are still interested goes to show GM's aren't so short sighted as to write him off because of a couple bad months.

He's shown last season he still has the goods. As a result, he still holds some value without a doubt.

Agreed. I am sure his poor play, combined with his "I won't report" controversy, is limiting possible takers and will limit value. But Toronto at least is looking at his collective resume.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by gargamel

If his GAA was primarily the fault of the defence, you'd expect MacDonald to be performing well below his career numbers, but he's been right where you'd expect him to be (lower GAA this season than for his career, but a slightly worse save percentage). If Kipper were playing as well as he did behind the poor defences of the Keenan years, we'd probably be fighting for a playoff spot.

It would have helped but I think every single goaltender to suit up for the Flames this season has been repeatedly hung out to dry by the worst defensive group to suit up in Calgary in over a decade. I can't see any team playing defense like this fighting for anything but the top pick in the July draft.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It would have helped but I think every single goaltender to suit up for the Flames this season has been repeatedly hung out to dry by the worst defensive group to suit up in Calgary in over a decade. I can't see any team playing defense like this fighting for anything but the top pick in the July draft.

I agree with this. 04 Kipper might have forced this team into a playoff spot. But I doubt it.

It doesn't excuse Kipper's poor play though. He might not be the problem. But his play has been part of it.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

The fact he's been bad this year is shown in the stats plain as day.

But the fact teams are still interested goes to show GM's aren't so short sighted as to write him off because of a couple bad months.

He's shown last season he still has the goods. As a result, he still holds some value without a doubt.

If he was 29, that might be the case. But not many 36-37 year old goalies have bounce-back years.

Most players - even elite players - see a steep decline in their play after 34. And most are a shadow of their former selves in their last season or two in the league.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If he was 29, that might be the case. But not many 36-37 year old goalies have bounce-back years.

Most players - even elite players - see a steep decline in their play after 34. And most are a shadow of their former selves in their last season or two in the league.

Do goalies really decline as quickly though? I kind of feel they hang on longer, but litterally drop right off the face of the earth at the end. Maybe we are at that point with Kipper though.

[dino7c]

I don't think not playing for half a season helped him at all...working out a winsport doesn't cut it

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Do goalies really decline as quickly though? I kind of feel they hang on longer, but litterally drop right off the face of the earth at the end. Maybe we are at that point with Kipper though.

Kiprusoff is a reflex goalie. A lot of his warts in positioning are made up because he's really, really fast to react to a situation. For a goalie like Backstrom, who are positioning based, I think they'll hold on longer. But someone who relies on aging reflexes is going to get hurt worse by age.

Brodeur, a hybrid-reflex goaltender, is a bit of a mystery for me.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

I love the guy, but this year he is playing like crap.

The whole team is playing like crap. Sure Mac hasnt been as bad but he still has had many 3 or more goals against nights. The D has been offensively intriguing this year but liabilities defensively.

[goflamesgo18]

Originally Posted by kirant

Kiprusoff is a reflex goalie. A lot of his warts in positioning are made up because he's really, really fast to react to a situation. For a goalie like Backstrom, who are positioning based, I think they'll hold on longer. But someone who relies on aging reflexes is going to get hurt worse by age.

Brodeur, a hybrid-reflex goaltender, is a bit of a mystery for me.

Hasek was completely "reflex," and he was good for a long time. All depends on the person.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If he was 29, that might be the case. But not many 36-37 year old goalies have bounce-back years.

Most players - even elite players - see a steep decline in their play after 34. And most are a shadow of their former selves in their last season or two in the league.

Considering we've seen his play dip and improve in the past, I'd say yes.

And there have been many cases of goalies remaining viable to upwards of 40 in recent years.

Regardless, he still has value and that's why we're seeing teams interested despite the stats this season.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by kirant

Kiprusoff is a reflex goalie. A lot of his warts in positioning are made up because he's really, really fast to react to a situation. For a goalie like Backstrom, who are positioning based, I think they'll hold on longer. But someone who relies on aging reflexes is going to get hurt worse by age.

Brodeur, a hybrid-reflex goaltender, is a bit of a mystery for me.

I always thought Kipper had uncanny anticipation skills more than great reflexes.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Nope. This team is special. You have to go goal by goal.

Except you claim you do that and then basically brush off one of the worst goals you'll see an NHL goalie let in all year (the Jones goal). A real unbiased look at things. Great, the first two goals are very tough saves, but let's ignore the fact that a beer league goalie stops the third one.



I have two questions for you:
1) How is it possible to have a defense so bad that Kipper's save% drops from .920 last year to .868 this year without any drop in his play (allegedly)? This is considering you were harping all over the Flames defense last year too and saying that he'd have the best save% in the league on a good defense.

2) What are your thoughts on Joey McDonald considering his numbers are considerably better (and right on par with career norms) playing behind the exact same defense?

[kirant]

Originally Posted by goflamesgo18

Hasek was completely "reflex," and he was good for a long time. All depends on the person.

Agreed that a lot of it comes down to your own ability. When the reflexes are up seem seem to be a big factor and it's defiantly not fair to place all goalies in the same spot - we don't have a god given age at which to say "you're done" and throw them out. But to trend has been, since I can recall following goalies as a kid, that goalies who rely on reflex tend to trail off faster once they hit their limit.

My memory about some of the goalies before my time isn't good (grew up to Avalanche iteration of Roy, and Brodeur), but I seem to remember a decent number of the goalies who run by reflex just drop off when their time is up. Hasek and Brodeur are pretty exceptional...but then again, we're also talking about two of the best goalies to play the position.

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I always thought Kipper had uncanny anticipation skills more than great reflexes.

Interesting. My view has always been that Kiprusoff has excellent vision and reflexes. He seems to know where the puck is and can scramble to stop it (re: his "scorpion" save as Weekes (if memory serves) dubbed it). Certainly, his weakness is positioning (as his softer goals tend to attest to).

Maybe my interpretation of the term "anticipation" is a bit off too. Anticipation to me seems to indicate that goalie knows where the shot is going and when they're going to shoot. Is that right?

[Erick Estrada]

The dude is getting old for an athlete. When athletes get close to their 40's their skills can deteriorate rapidly at any time. Kipper has played a lot of hockey over the years and I've been hard on him at times but not now because it's close to the end and the guy has been a first rate player for this organization. I wish him all the best when he likely hangs up the skates for good this summer. It's such a shame that he is going out this way behind such a horrible defensive team. He deserves better than this.

[$ven27]

If he does go, I'll probably be more sad then I was over Iggy. He's been the backbone of this team for years, and I generally find him funny.

[Enoch Root]

and yet the Leafs want to extend him...

But I'm sure those of you that say he's done are right (couldn't possibly be the lockout season, no pre-season, and a month-long injury).

This is destined to go down as yet another horrible Leafs-Flames trade.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

and yet the Leafs want to extend him...

But I'm sure those of you that say he's done are right (couldn't possibly be the lockout season, no pre-season, and a month-long injury).

This is destined to go down as yet another horrible Leafs-Flames trade.

It could, but as long as we get a decent mid round pick, a third that bumps up to a 2 if they extend him, the cap space along with say, Scrivens, makes it a passable and necessary deal to make.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

and yet the Leafs want to extend him...

But I'm sure those of you that say he's done are right (couldn't possibly be the lockout season, no pre-season, and a month-long injury).

This is destined to go down as yet another horrible Leafs-Flames trade.

For who?

If Calgary gets anything for him at this point...thats a win. Him playing here next season makes zero sense with what the club is shaping up to be, so any asset moving forward is better than nothing.

If he goes on to success in TO....who cares? It would never have occurred here.

[Johnny Rotten]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

It could, but as long as we get a decent mid round pick, a third that bumps up to a 2 if they extend him, the cap space along with say, Scrivens, makes it a passable and necessary deal to make.

I think you're right. If it's a 26-28 year old Kipper, I'd want to keep him. Now, as much as I like him, the Flames need to get something of value for him if they can.