Can no immunization = No Preschool?

[Bagor]

Yeah, go on OP. You really need to clarify.

What is it exactly you don't trust and expand on your belief that the idea of vaccines being relevant/needed today needs to be explored. What exactly needs to be explored?

[JonDuke]

You're right. Maybe I should have expanded more in my first post. But, like mentioned, the main objective of the thread was to see if kids could be denied access.

[jayswin]

Well. that was certainly the opposite of clarification.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Who said anything about religious beliefs? I certainly didn't.

You said parents should be able to decide if their kids get vaccinated, I was curious how far you let parents go with this line of thinking. The health of a child is not always best decided by parents, since there are so many bad ones.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

Ermahgerd please don't put me in their line up!

Infecting yourself with a weakened disease so your own immune system can fight it- thus creating an immunity - just makes sense.

Creating a waste management system where disease is safely removed far way from hands and mouths before it can affect you - makes sense!

I guess we are just on different sides of the same argument. Both are necessary, but one is more vital than the other... I can live with that.

I think you give sanitation too much credit, but I have not yet heard you suggest any hard percentages or numbers on what sanitation would have had an affect on the numbers vaccinations regularly claim as their success. 10%, 20%, etc..? Just curious, since I agree but seem them as very small.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by Thor

I think you give sanitation too much credit, but I have not yet heard you suggest any hard percentages or numbers on what sanitation would have had an affect on the numbers vaccinations regularly claim as their success. 10%, 20%, etc..? Just curious, since I agree but seem them as very small.

Fair enough. I believe 1940's and later sanitation is the biggest and best invention for mankind. The book I posted has incredible data. I read it years ago (or a similar book). It's easy to make fun of it because of the anti vaccination people, but it has valid and multiple examples/graphs to it.

I had a book that graphed a direct link with the decline of polio with sanitation verses the vaccination, but I lent that out and it is now lost forever... I would have been a simple scan, but because I'm working on a project for a client and it needs to be done tonight. I'll have to do a search on it later.

[krynski]

nvm

Sanitation is huge when it comes to immunology. So is vaccination.

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

The piling on a guy and absolute bullying him, I think, has been quite unnecessary. You will neither change the mans mind nor help him. You just alienate him.

I'd like to see how many posters here said they were against internet bullying.

I wish!

Can you imagine a world where bullies piled upon the the conspiracy nuts, the anti-vaxxers, and the illuminati fools and left the weak and the marginalized alone? It would be AWESOME.

Join the battle for reason! Drive the stupid from society!

[RedMileDJ]

I'm disappointed in this thread. There are way better pictures of Jenny McCarthy that can be posted.

[pylon]

The bottom line is this. Without vaccinations, 30% of the people posting in this thread wouldn't exist. Which may or my not be a good thing.

I work with a dude that is hardcore anti-vaccination, and I actually managed to smack some reality into him one day when he went off about how many people are killed or disabled because of vaccines. I told him, "Go google the 'estimated' worldwide number of deaths from, smallpox, measles, and polio." Then google the number recorded deaths from vaccinations, in the last 30 years and do the math.

Yes there is a tiny risk of something bad happening from a vaccine. There is a sizeably larger risk, by not being vaccinated. I'll take the latter odds.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

Fair enough. I believe 1940's and later sanitation is the biggest and best invention for mankind. The book I posted has incredible data. I read it years ago (or a similar book). It's easy to make fun of it because of the anti vaccination people, but it has valid and multiple examples/graphs to it.

I had a book that graphed a direct link with the decline of polio with sanitation verses the vaccination, but I lent that out and it is now lost forever... I would have been a simple scan, but because I'm working on a project for a client and it needs to be done tonight. I'll have to do a search on it later.

Read Freakonomics.

What you will discover that of course the rise of sanitation is highly correlated with a decrease in disease, since the rise of sanitation also increased with vaccination use. Many factors work together, but someone would have to be an idiot (this is not bullying, it is simply true) to withhold vaccinating children due to their own silly belief system. Statistics are great, and only prove the value of immunizations. Correlation on the other hand makes for great story telling since it does not equal causation.

I hire an accountant or a lawyer or an electrician to take care of things I have no expertise in. The health of my children is even more important.

You know what else is interesting? I have lived in 3rd world countries and my vaccinations kept me VERY safe compared to the general population. There was no real sanitation, yet I carried on. I would have been a mess had I not had all of my shots beforehand.

[TokenKingsFan]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

Fair enough. I believe 1940's and later sanitation is the biggest and best invention for mankind. The book I posted has incredible data. I read it years ago (or a similar book). It's easy to make fun of it because of the anti vaccination people, but it has valid and multiple examples/graphs to it.

I had a book that graphed a direct link with the decline of polio with sanitation verses the vaccination, but I lent that out and it is now lost forever... I would have been a simple scan, but because I'm working on a project for a client and it needs to be done tonight. I'll have to do a search on it later.

As the author of the blog (and a Kings' fan, which I hope doesn't diminish the quality of my reply) that mentioned how vaccines ended many diseases, and as someone who has a Ph.D. in biochemistry, and as someone who has spent years in medical research and development, improved sanitation is vastly overrated. There were 400 million smallpox deaths during the 20th century spread almost evenly, per capita, between all countries. It was eradicated because of vaccines. It is possible that better sanitation cut the deaths from 800 million down to 400 million, but it was vaccinations that eliminated it. The fallacy of better sanitation is that it only works if its near perfect, and that's impossible. One piece of fecal matter on a hand can be spread to thousands of people in a day. And each of them spread it accidentally. And before you know it, people are dead.

But there are infectious diseases that spread without the quality of sanitation. The Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918 killed vast swaths of health young men. Twenty million dead. Even with today's medicine, I doubt we have tools or facilities to reduce the death rate from such an epidemic.

Simply put vaccines save lives. Whooping cough kills. Measles can cause encephalitis that kills. Polio paralyzes, even if it doesn't kill. The flu in the US during 2012-13 killed 105 children, 90% of whom were not vaccinated.

There is no rational reason to not vaccinate. The side-effects are modest at best, and this is known through clinical research that costs millions of dollars to complete. The anti-vaxxers have NO VALID AND PEER-REVIEWED EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THEIR CLAIMS. None.

By the way, we discussed this thread on a vaccine science forum. Because the comments were so intelligent and rational here, someone asked me if it is because you all are Canadian, hockey fans or both. Because if someone asked this question in the USA, all of the crazy anti-vaxxers would have come out.

To the OP, I don't know what Canadian law is, but in the USA, many states block enrollment even in pre-school unless the student has completed all of the necessary vaccines for his or her age. There are exemptions for religious belief, but even courts today are throwing out those exemptions because no valid mainstream religion is against vaccinations. Even Jehovah's Witnesses who are opposed to all medical procedures, allow vaccines.

I don't know your motivation for not vaccinating your kids, but if you're willing to discuss your reasoning with experts, as long as you're willing to come with an open mind, I can PM you a link to the group. They're mostly women, very civil, and maybe able to gently provide you with information about vaccines. Don't risk your children's lives to myth, junk medicine and pseudoscience.

[pylon]

tl;dr

[Jimmy Stang]

Not bad (for a King's fan).

Actually, that was great. Thanks for visiting, and congrats on the cup win.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by pylon

tl;dr

You should read it, and save the tl;dr for when dumasses post.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Read Freakonomics.

What you will discover that of course the rise of sanitation is highly correlated with a decrease in disease, since the rise of sanitation also increased with vaccination use. Many factors work together, but someone would have to be an idiot (this is not bullying, it is simply true) to withhold vaccinating children due to their own silly belief system. Statistics are great, and only prove the value of immunizations. Correlation on the other hand makes for great story telling since it does not equal causation.

I hire an accountant or a lawyer or an electrician to take care of things I have no expertise in. The health of my children is even more important.

You know what else is interesting? I have lived in 3rd world countries and my vaccinations kept me VERY safe compared to the general population. There was no real sanitation, yet I carried on. I would have been a mess had I not had all of my shots beforehand.

There was a gap between the Vaccination and Sanitation development across the country (decade(s) I believe) and the actual significant decrease of disease occurred after Sanitation was implemented. Both are great preventative measures. One was better at maximizing safe environments and keeping our drinking waterways consistently clean.

You are one person living in the third world. Not a good enough sample size.

As an example, poor areas of China still throw their fecal matter into the streets for the pigs to eat. You literally sit on a toilet in the alleys and defecate where a pig is hiding underneath to clean it up. This story is from a highly educated engineer 10 years ago who went to China on a contract and an adventure and to do something new. in a different country.

Purely a what if question here. Naturally I would want both but if you could only have one what would you want long term? A better sanitation system or vaccines and boosters. Remember, you will be consistently walking in waste if you choose vaccines. Bugs, dogs and cats and goats will be tracking it everywhere. Including the rivers. You will consistently be bombarded with waste disease.

Again I want both but that is not the option in the discussion. I would prefer a modern sanitation system.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

You should read it, and save the tl;dr for when dumasses post.

I did read it entirely, and thought it explained it perfectly.

It really didn't think green text was required for such an absurdly ignorant post on my part. Especially since I posted like three posts before supporting everything he said in a much less sciencey and smrt manner. Gimme a little leeway here. I think a dog wearing a horse mask is the funniest thing ever.

[Red Ice Player]

Great post by TokenKingsFan. He makes a good point about the sanity of the posters here on CP.
I was born in 1958, just late enough to get childhood vaccination for polio, and thank god for that. Over the years I've met several people who were just a few years older than me, who were stricken with polio and sported the withered crippled limbs as a result. I still got nailed with Rubella, Red Measles, Chicken Pox, and Mumps, as the vaccination for those diseases came a little later. I dodged a few bullets, but the ones I wasn't vaccinated against, I got, as did pretty much all of my peers.
The anti vaxers are pretty much a younger crowd, born into a society which was already vaccinated against the very diseases they choose to expose their children to. You know what they say about those who ignore history...
Also, I have elderly family members for whom I care dearly. I don't want them getting infected by unvaccinated offspring of people who choose to be ignorant.

[MrMastodonFarm]

At first I thought it was TolkienKingFan

For Frodo...!

[TokenKingsFan]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

At first I thought it was TolkienKingFan

For Frodo...!

If only I had thought of that!!!

I wanted to make sure I didn't come across as a some Kings' troll here.

Funny thing is every time I hear of a sports team coming down with the flu, I wonder why the medical staff doesn't vaccinate the whole team early in the season. It should be in the contract for the player. Because once one gets it, it's almost impossible to not to spread it.

My son is in management with the Ducks (previously with the Panthers, a loser loser loser organization). When he becomes GM, I'll tell him to make sure that the flu vaccine is given, probably twice, every season!