[News] Toronto and another team granted permission to talk to Kipper

[Mitch]

John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet 45s
If Leafs are indeed talking extension for Kiprusoff...That's IF...NHL source says: "They can certainly discuss it,but nothing is binding."

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No team is giving a first for a goalie playing like kipper is

"Playing like Kipper is"

One bad goal last game. The first two are absolutely not on him. And if he went in net against Edm, with the team saying "We know Jay is gone, we will tighten up in front of you", then they leave Schultz in the slot and back away, then give Hall a clear path to the net, what does that do to any sane goalie? They must think "here we go again". Then one bad goal that can't go in does.

People are overdoing this. The knives out for Kipper are disappointing. I know the sentiment is that the team is not good, but he isn't playing well. But this year has been beyond ridiculous. Most games you can pull out two goals that are frankly not reasonable to expect him to stop. You look at a guy skating through the crease, pulling him out of position by dragging him by his pad. That is waves off more often than not, but against him, it is CP bitching about sv%

The first goal on Vokoun tonight was exactly what the Flames do to Kipper every game, more than once. Vokoun did exactly as well as could be expected

What is the typical sv% for goalies in shootouts, 50-60 percent? You can't give up 4 or 5 chances that are pretty much as high quality as shootout attempts then start looking at sv%.

I agree that Jones goal can't go in but Kipper has been playing behind beer league D. Yeah, it's that bad.

Sadly the only way to make that point is to go game by game, goal by goal and assign goat horns.

But the guy is getting a raw deal, on and off the ice. If he gets traded he will shine.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

"Playing like Kipper is"

One bad goal last game. The first two are absolutely not on him. And if he went in net against Edm, with the team saying "We know Jay is gone, we will tighten up in front of you", then they leave Schultz in the slot and back away, then give Hall a clear path to the net, what does that do to any sane goalie? They must think "here we go again". Then one bad goal that can't go in does.

People are overdoing this. The knives out for Kipper are disappointing. I know the sentiment is that the team is not good, but he isn't playing well. But this year has been beyond ridiculous. Most games you can pull out two goals that are frankly not reasonable to expect him to stop. You look at a guy skating through the crease, pulling him out of position by dragging him by his pad. That is waves off more often than not, but against him, it is CP bitching about sv%

The first goal on Vokoun tonight was exactly what the Flames do to Kipper every game, more than once. Vokoun did exactly as well as could be expected

What is the typical sv% for goalies in shootouts, 50-60 percent? You can't give up 4 or 5 chances that are pretty much as high quality as shootout attempts then start looking at sv%.

I agree that Jones goal can't go in but Kipper has been playing behind beer league D. Yeah, it's that bad.

Sadly the only way to make that point is to go game by game, goal by goal and assign goat horns.

But the guy is getting a raw deal, on and off the ice. If he gets traded he will shine.

It's not just one game. I love Kipper and have huge homer goggles for him but my goodness has he been awful this year. Sure the team D has been awful but so has Kipper.

[The Fonz]

When has a goaltender been traded for a big return?

Honestly, I don't remember.

[The Fonz]

I'd imagine we'll get a 3rd + a warm body. If we get a 2nd I'll be ecstatic.

[dino7c]

it would be a miracle if we get a 2nd round pick yet some think we might get a first

I don't know guys...anything would be a good deal

[Wood]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

When has a goaltender been traded for a big return?

Honestly, I don't remember.

The last big goalie trade I can think of was Varlomov for a 1st and a 2nd

[MissTeeks]

@DarrenDreger: Tor and Van had additional discussions re: Luongo trade. Sounds like Canucks still want more than Leafs are willing to give. #tradecentre

[Kaine]

Honestly I was expecting a third + a conditional second or third IF he signs an extension (is this possible?) or just a strait third if the above isn't possible. If we get anything more I'll be happy.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Kaine

It's not just one game. I love Kipper and have huge homer goggles for him but my goodness has he been awful this year. Sure the team D has been awful but so has Kipper.

This is the response every game and every time you cite examples. That's why I said the only way to prove it is to go game by game, goal by goal and assign a goat.

Nope, he hasn't been awful. On the Jones goal, yes. On a five hole goal in one of the first games, sure. He gets the goat on a handful, but a very small minority.

But on the whole, no. Not awful. I know people will say it but it is in vogue.

I know what I have seen, which is pretty much every game, and he has not played unreasonably poorly night in and night out. Goal by goal, that's the only way to prove it. But I stand by it

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by Kaine

Honestly I was expecting a third + a conditional second or third IF he signs an extension (is this possible?) or just a strait third if the above isn't possible. If we get anything more I'll be happy.

It would be cool if we could do a Clowe-like deal. 2nd, 3rd and conditional 2nd if he signs an extension.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

This is the response every game and every time you cite examples. That's why I said the only way to prove it is to go game by game, goal by goal and assign a goat.

Nope, he hasn't been awful. On the Jones goal, yes. On a five hole goal in one of the first games, sure. He gets the goat on a handful, but a very small minority.

But on the whole, no. Not awful. I know people will say it but it is in vogue.

I know what I have seen, which is pretty much every game, and he has not played unreasonably poorly night in and night out. Goal by goal, that's the only way to prove it. But I stand by it

Honestly I don't really care enough about the topic to discuss it in length right now, we'll just agree to disagree. Odds are we'll learn more in the next few hours or tomorrow morning anyway about Kippers fate.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

This is the response every game and every time you cite examples. That's why I said the only way to prove it is to go game by game, goal by goal and assign a goat.

Nope, he hasn't been awful. On the Jones goal, yes. On a five hole goal in one of the first games, sure. He gets the goat on a handful, but a very small minority.

But on the whole, no. Not awful. I know people will say it but it is in vogue.

I know what I have seen, which is pretty much every game, and he has not played unreasonably poorly night in and night out. Goal by goal, that's the only way to prove it. But I stand by it

He is challenging for the worst SV% in history by an NHL starting goalie. Perhaps you have a different definition of horrible. But he has been horrible.

He is letting to many soft ones in. And last time I checked it was his job to stop some of the hard ones. You judge him goal by goal and if it was a tough stop he gets a pass? Every time? I watch a lot of NHL and I see a lot of goalies making saves on the tough ones more consistently then Kipper has been.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

This is the response every game and every time you cite examples. That's why I said the only way to prove it is to go game by game, goal by goal and assign a goat.

Nope, he hasn't been awful. On the Jones goal, yes. On a five hole goal in one of the first games, sure. He gets the goat on a handful, but a very small minority.

But on the whole, no. Not awful. I know people will say it but it is in vogue.

I know what I have seen, which is pretty much every game, and he has not played unreasonably poorly night in and night out. Goal by goal, that's the only way to prove it. But I stand by it

The body of work is enough to demonstrate that he hasn't been good.

His goals against is over 3.5. His SVP is below 0.870.
His stats are worse than Joey McD, and rank in the bottom of the league amongst all goalies.
I love the guy and consider him the best tender that has ever played here - but let's face facts - he has been poor this year. Doesn't discount his past accomplishments but it is what it is - he's not played well this year at all.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by kehatch

He is challenging for the worst SV% in history by an NHL starting goalie. Perhaps you have a different definition of horrible. But he has been horrible.

He is letting to many soft ones in. And last time I checked it was his job to stop some of the hard ones.

Not changing my mind. Beer league D and way, way, way too many lone gunmen in the slot. Enough to be statistically significant. But I'm with Kaine. Don't care enough to say more at this point.

[Vinny01]

Get this thing done already! I hope we get a decent return because if we end up with a 4th and Kipper finds vintage form it will just be another fleece job by the Leafs on the Flames. Having said that Kipper is not worth keeping around for the rebuild

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Kaine

It's not just one game. I love Kipper and have huge homer goggles for him but my goodness has he been awful this year. Sure the team D has been awful but so has Kipper.

If his GAA was primarily the fault of the defence, you'd expect MacDonald to be performing well below his career numbers, but he's been right where you'd expect him to be (lower GAA this season than for his career, but a slightly worse save percentage). If Kipper were playing as well as he did behind the poor defences of the Keenan years, we'd probably be fighting for a playoff spot.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The body of work is enough to demonstrate that he hasn't been good.

His goals against is over 3.5. His SVP is below 0.870.
His stats are worse than Joey McD, and rank in the bottom of the league amongst all goalies.
I love the guy and consider him the best tender that has ever played here - but let's face facts - he has been poor this year. Doesn't discount his past accomplishments but it is what it is - he's not played well this year at all.

Nope. This team is special. You have to go goal by goal.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Not changing my mind. Beer league D and way, way, way too many lone gunmen in the slot. Enough to be statistically significant. But I'm with Kaine. Don't care enough to say more at this point.

Uhuh. The Flames are worse then every other team in history and the 5.8 million dollar goalie has no responsibility.

[DuffMan]

I love the guy, but this year he is playing like crap.