Feasters chance of staying on ....

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Given that the Bruins are so deep at centre that Seguin doesn't even play it, all things being equal I'd say it's probably a wash. If they were making the same amount of money, Kessel might actually be more useful to the Bruins, seeing as what he brought forced them to go acquire Nathan Horton. So who'd you rather have, Horton or Kessel?

Seguin is still a better player than Kessel. As for Horton he's doing quite well this year. Still think the Bruins won the trade.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Dion

Seguin is still a better player than Kessel. As for Horton he's doing quite well this year. Still think the Bruins won the trade.

Sure they won the trade. You asked who you'd rather have, Seguin or Kessel. The numbers indicate that it's basically a toss up, with Seguin's primary advantage being he's a centre on an ELC.

On a team with Bergeron, Krecji and Peverly, Seguin doesn't get to play much centre. So if I have to play both of them as wingers, I don't think I can go wrong with either.

Now, if I'd rather have Kessel over Seguin, Hamilton, Spooner and Knight, then the answer is obviously the latter. But you didn't ask that.

[C_of_Red28]

Hope slim because he's terrible. Fire him already

[Dagger]

If he's negotiating his own contract, I'm really not sure how he:
A) gets paid
B) has any benefits
C) has any sort of length on his contract

Baffling.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Sure they won the trade. You asked who you'd rather have, Seguin or Kessel. The numbers indicate that it's basically a toss up, with Seguin's primary advantage being he's a centre on an ELC.

On a team with Bergeron, Krecji and Peverly, Seguin doesn't get to play much centre. So if I have to play both of them as wingers, I don't think I can go wrong with either.

Now, if I'd rather have Kessel over Seguin, Hamilton, Spooner and Knight, then the answer is obviously the latter. But you didn't ask that.

I don't really know any decent way to argue Kessel over any of the aforementioned guys.

If you packaged Seguin and Hamilton right now you would most likely get a far better player than Kessel. Hell, one of them in a package could probably do that.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dagger

I don't really know any decent way to argue Kessel over any of the aforementioned guys.

If you packaged Seguin and Hamilton right now you would most likely get a far better player than Kessel. Hell, one of them in a package could probably do that.

Such a terrible way to look at that deal with 20/20 hindsight.

The Question is at the time of the deal could you realistically think that Seguin and Hamilton were the return and the answer is no way.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Given that the Bruins are so deep at centre that Seguin doesn't even play it, all things being equal I'd say it's probably a wash. If they were making the same amount of money, Kessel might actually be more useful to the Bruins, seeing as what he brought forced them to go acquire Nathan Horton. So who'd you rather have, Horton or Kessel?

Kessel stats last 3 years:
32G 32A 64P
37G 45A 82P
10G 24A 34P (As of APril 1 2013)

Seguin stats last 3 years:
11G 11A 22P
29G 38A 67P
11G 14A 25P (As of April 1, 2013)

This isn't Phaneuf vs Ian White we're talking about here.

This is Phil Kessel the 25 year old winger vs Tyler Seguin the 21 year old center. This is comparing a guy in/ around his prime with a team built around him to a kid who forced his way into the lineup in his rookie year, and then exploded in his sophomore year(where many regress).

Adding those picks allowed the Bruins to be confident about their future, as when the time comes for the core to naturally evolve(as the Flames tried to ignore and now find themselves with no answers for this process) they had answers. Chara starts to regress? That sucks, but now Dougie Hamilton eats his minutes and looks like he'll excell. Marc Savard is injured? ####, but Tyler is here to claim back some production and will grow into a better player in that role.

Need 2nd line scoring? Ryan Spooner is right there.

If anything, trading Kessel allowed the Bruins to re-tool on the fly, and replace his production with cheaper players(like Horton) who offer a more well rounded game. Having young assets makes it easier to justify giving up pieces for the future as you've already recounted more. Horton gave them the size, toughness and physicality that they lacked in their top six - I'd argue if they'd kept Kessel they don't win the Cup.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by moon

Such a terrible way to look at that deal with 20/20 hindsight.

The Question is at the time of the deal could you realistically think that Seguin and Hamilton were the return and the answer is no way.

I'd think that I'm getting two picks anywhere between 5-20. Kessel isn't good enough(and was never considered) to be the difference between bottom three in a conference and the playoffs. The Leafs were regressing and acquired a good player(who Chiarelli knew wasn't close to a franchise guy) so it's easy to see that.

So would I have thought the picks were that good? No on Seguin and possibly on Hamilton(who is in that range - but slipped in the draft), but I would be confident it's not a back end first rounder and a chip that allows me flexibility now and in the future. It's done 10/10 times.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dagger

I'd think that I'm getting two picks anywhere between 5-20. Kessel isn't good enough(and was never considered) to be the difference between bottom three in a conference and the playoffs. The Leafs were regressing and acquired a good player(who Chiarelli knew wasn't close to a franchise guy) so it's easy to see that.

So would I have thought the picks were that good? No on Seguin and possibly on Hamilton(who is in that range - but slipped in the draft), but I would be confident it's not a back end first rounder and a chip that allows me flexibility now and in the future. It's done 10/10 times.

I will say straight up as a Burke defender I wouldn't have done the deal.

But for 2 picks in 5-20 it doesnt look bad at all.

I think it was a poor deal but not nearly as bad because at the time there is no way to think it was going to be Seguin and Hamilton.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by moon

I will say straight up as a Burke defender I wouldn't have done the deal.

But for 2 picks in 5-20 it doesnt look bad at all.

I think it was a poor deal but not nearly as bad because at the time there is no way to think it was going to be Seguin and Hamilton.

Why not try and slap protection on the picks? Offering a third this year for a deferred pick(say top 5 protected) is something I'm sure Boston would have taken if Chiarelli projected a similar standing to the above.

The problem with trading those picks for Kessel, even if it wasn't the deal itself, is that they had little to no assets to go out and really improve the club. Adding one guy, especially possessing only one dimension will not drastically improve the team. Waning goaltending was never addressed properly and it's why they took so long to get where they are now, and why whiffing on getting a goalie by mortgaging the future(see Raycroft in TO and Varlamov in WSH) never works. Burke half assed that rebuild.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Why not try and slap protection on the picks? Offering a third this year for a deferred pick(say top 5 protected) is something I'm sure Boston would have taken if Chiarelli projected a similar standing to the above.

The problem with trading those picks for Kessel, even if it wasn't the deal itself, is that they had little to no assets to go out and really improve the club. Adding one guy, especially possessing only one dimension will not drastically improve the team. Waning goaltending was never addressed properly and it's why they took so long to get where they are now, and why whiffing on getting a goalie by mortgaging the future(see Raycroft in TO and Varlamov in WSH) never works. Burke half assed that rebuild.

You might be right with the first part and are 100% right with the last line. I think Burke was right in thinking his team was not going to be a bottom 5 team that year. It didn't work out.

I don't think Burke is the be all and end all just think he gets way too much crap for that one deal,

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Dagger

This is Phil Kessel the 25 year old winger vs Tyler Seguin the 21 year old center. This is comparing a guy in/ around his prime with a team built around him to a kid who forced his way into the lineup in his rookie year, and then exploded in his sophomore year(where many regress).

Adding those picks allowed the Bruins to be confident about their future, as when the time comes for the core to naturally evolve(as the Flames tried to ignore and now find themselves with no answers for this process) they had answers. Chara starts to regress? That sucks, but now Dougie Hamilton eats his minutes and looks like he'll excell. Marc Savard is injured? ####, but Tyler is here to claim back some production and will grow into a better player in that role.

Need 2nd line scoring? Ryan Spooner is right there.

If anything, trading Kessel allowed the Bruins to re-tool on the fly, and replace his production with cheaper players(like Horton) who offer a more well rounded game. Having young assets makes it easier to justify giving up pieces for the future as you've already recounted more. Horton gave them the size, toughness and physicality that they lacked in their top six - I'd argue if they'd kept Kessel they don't win the Cup.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the deal, and I agree that long term you want Seguin, even though he doesn't even play center on his own team. But it's not like Kessel didn't also force his way onto his team as an 18 year old, had better numbers as a rookie than Seguin, before scoring 36 goals as a 3rd year player.

All I'm saying is, Kessel is a good player. It's not his fault his GM overpaid for him. And again, the question I was answering was not 'Kessel vs Everything TO gave up' it was 'Kessel vs Seguin'. And that's a closer conversation than most people want to admit. The difference is, you shouldn't build primarily around a winger, no matter how good.

[Phanuthier]

Speaking of the Kessel OS, it vaguely resembles the ROR OS... a young "now" player for a top pick.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by moon

He can seem intent on anything he wants if he shows that he is incapable of making those changes then his intent is useless.

He didn't inherit close to the mess people try to make it out to be and he made it much worse with his insistence of not rebuilding and going for play-offs when it was clear the talent was not there and the "answers were not in the room."

Hindsight is 20/20

[oldschoolcalgary]

i love how LA had to give up 2 nd rounders for Regher ("broken, overpaid" according to some when we traded him) while we had the infamous Reggie + Kotalik + a 2nd for Butler and Byron!

I am sure the Feaster supporters will figure a way to spin that into "not Jay's fault" too...

[Badgers Nose]

SportsnetSpec: At '11 draft #Flames dealt Regehr to BUF with Kotalik + a 2nd for Paul Byron+Chris Butler. BUF got two 2nd rd picks for Regehr from LAK.

So Regehr appreciated in value?

not a good trade IMO.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

i love how LA had to give up 2 nd rounders for Regher ("broken, overpaid" according to some when we traded him) while we had the infamous Reggie + Kotalik + a 2nd for Butler and Byron!

I am sure the Feaster supporters will figure a way to spin that into "not Jay's fault" too...

beat me by 4 min.

my thoughts exactly.

[nik-]

Well there was term left for Regehr too. The Regehr trade was bad, but not because of what the Sabres got for him.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

i love how LA had to give up 2 nd rounders for Regher ("broken, overpaid" according to some when we traded him) while we had the infamous Reggie + Kotalik + a 2nd for Butler and Byron!

I am sure the Feaster supporters will figure a way to spin that into "not Jay's fault" too...

Its worth pointing out Regehr had to be dealt within a short time frame window so the Flames could make the offer to Brad Richards / Ryan Smyth...

[FAN]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Kessel might actually be more useful to the Bruins, seeing as what he brought forced them to go acquire Nathan Horton. So who'd you rather have, Horton or Kessel?

I rather have Horton and win a Stanley Cup.