[Trade] Bouwmeester to Blues for conditional 2013 1st, Cundari and goaltender Reto Berra

[Johnny Rotten]

Would have liked more of a return for sure, but the cap space the Flames have created-23 million approx. is important, I believe.

[Flames89]

Do people really believe two 2nd rounders are better than one 1st?
(Re: regehr and bouw)

[TKB]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

Would have liked more of a return for sure, but the cap space the Flames have created-23 million approx. is important, I believe.

What good is cap space if you are rebuilding though? its not like any good UFA will come play for a terrible rebuilding team.

[The Yen Man]

The more I think about this trade, the more I like it. I don't even mind the conditional first. Either way, we get a first rounder, be it this year or next. Heck, it actually works pretty well for the Flames too in that they have a chance to draft higher should the Blues make the playoffs.

As to the prospects, realistically Flames were never going to get a 1st AND either Rattie or Schwartz. That was just wishful thinking IMO.

What is most important are the Flames are finally cleaning house on the core that has underperformed for the past 3 seasons. That's the most exciting part of these moves IMO.

[anyonebutedmonton]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

It's pretty safe to say that they do. A dude who gets a high LSAT score isn't driving a forklift or working with metal. Those things do correlate to intelligence, and not in a good way.

Its important to understand though, that I am not making the case that simply by going to the school he did, that he somehow has to be an A+ negotiator. Its just that it is highly unlikely that he made an outright stupid decision and left value on the table, which is something people have been advocating for in this thread.

There is so much to criticize in this organization, lets keep it on the stuff that makes rational sense at the very least.

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by anyonebutedmonton

I am about to offend some of you...

Jay Feaster attended a top-14 law school in the US. This means that he is likely in the top 2% of the population when it comes to intelligence. It is a fact that he is significantly smarter than the VAST majority on this message board. To think that he somehow made a mistake and simply did not understand the market, a market that he has spent his career in, is a very unreasonable position to take here.

The market is what it is. To think that Feaster just simply did not explore his options is just ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that this is likely the highest pick we could possibly have hoped to receive for any player. Bottom teams are not willing to move their top 15 picks for mature players. It has of course been argued that the pick may not be this year. This is a risk that we have taken. However if the pick turns out to be in 2014, there is also a chance the Blues tank and we end up with a top 10 pick next year. The prospects are bonus here and someone in the organization sees value in them.

Do I think Feaster is a fantastic GM? Hell no. But, the arguments being slung here that he didn't get proper value for Bouwmeester are just plain ignorant.

The honest flames fan understands that this team is at least 3 years away from playing any meaningful hockey. By meaningful I mean icing a team that has a realistic chance at contending for the cup. Jay Bouwmeester is not the player that will be on this hypothetical team. Neither is Iginla. We have to move forward from this position and these moves have been made so that we have a chance at developing the next batch of Flames stars.

I'll disagree with you on the intelligence rationale. To get into law school requires a degree in political science, psychology, sociology or some other "soft" science. Critical thinking and scientific method are not ingrained in these degrees nor is hockey business. Lawyers are trained to read and understand the technical terms of law, much like someone learns a new language. I'm pretty sure the 2% in this province are tucked away in the science and engineering departments of the U of A or U of C when they're not busy running CP.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Sutter's reign of failure lasted much longer than one day.

Only if you consider drafting, player development, putting together a coaching staff, and cap management to be core GM duties. Because, you know, other than dismally failing at all those things, Sutter was a fine, fine GM.

[dino7c]

18 goals in almost 300 games

[jaydaybay]

Any chance feaster can package pitt/stl (cndtl) picks and move up in the draft?

Two top 10ish picks this year would be most excellent. Maybe pipe dream tho. Would think it would have to happen at the draft.

Didnt see this discussed at all yet.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by anyonebutedmonton

I am about to offend some of you...

Jay Feaster attended a top-14 law school in the US. This means that he is likely in the top 2% of the population when it comes to intelligence. It is a fact that he is significantly smarter than the VAST majority on this message board. To think that he somehow made a mistake and simply did not understand the market, a market that he has spent his career in, is a very unreasonable position to take here.

The market is what it is. To think that Feaster just simply did not explore his options is just ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that this is likely the highest pick we could possibly have hoped to receive for any player. Bottom teams are not willing to move their top 15 picks for mature players. It has of course been argued that the pick may not be this year. This is a risk that we have taken. However if the pick turns out to be in 2014, there is also a chance the Blues tank and we end up with a top 10 pick next year. The prospects are bonus here and someone in the organization sees value in them.

Do I think Feaster is a fantastic GM? Hell no. But, the arguments being slung here that he didn't get proper value for Bouwmeester are just plain ignorant.

The honest flames fan understands that this team is at least 3 years away from playing any meaningful hockey. By meaningful I mean icing a team that has a realistic chance at contending for the cup. Jay Bouwmeester is not the player that will be on this hypothetical team. Neither is Iginla. We have to move forward from this position and these moves have been made so that we have a chance at developing the next batch of Flames stars.

It's not a bad post but just because he might have a high IQ does not automatically make him a good negotiator. A high IQ also does not mean he knows how to judge hockey talent.

I will aslo add that if having a high IQ is how you judge the GM, why was his innitial take on the team so wrong? He even admitted today that he judged the team wrong.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by anyonebutedmonton

Not saying LSAT grades are directly correlated to intelligence, but in order to get into Georgetown, he likely shot between a 165-170. This would qualify him for Mensa (top 2%). The organization is stupid, but the point stands that it is almost a certainty that Feaster is more intelligent than the vast majority of CP posters.

Does this make him an incredible GM? Nope. But it makes the likelihood that he just outright did not understand the situation, ie did not take the best deal on the table, very low.

Argue that he is overvaluing a first rounder. Argue that the two prospects that they targetted are crap. But, please, do not premise your "FIRE FEASTER NOW" arguments on the fact that he simply made a terrible decision and could have gotten way more.

Is this really what this thread has come to? Feaster went to law school so he must be really smart, so we shouldn't criticize his trades?

I don't know how your math skills are, but I can tell you that roughly one in fifty CP posters should also be MENSA candidates, give or take. So should they be allowed to have an opinion on his trades?

I know that I am pretty comfortable having my own opinion, regardless of what school he went to.

[Flames89]

Originally Posted by handgroen

best case scenario: flames suck this year and next, shrewd picks and some time to let our talent mature and we fight for a spot in 2015 and are a real force in the west for 5 or 6 years afterward

Better than another 10 years of 'almost maybe dammit 9/10th again"

And by 10 years,I mean 24

[djsFlames]

Finally I get to comment on this.

This trade isn't terrible. It's not Jarome-bad in terms of the context of the trade and the value of the players involved. But I'm positive that if Feaster gave the Blues an ultimatum involving one of their more highly touted and well known youngsters, he could've got it. And if he didn't get it today, I bet he would've got it on wednesday when other suitors would have also made bids to force the Blues GM's hand. I like the d-man coming back, I just think Jay should've demanded a goalie in another trade, with say.. Ottawa?! Why bother getting less of a sure thing G from the Jbo trade, when Stemp or Glencross could land you Bishop from the Sens?

IMO the return Should've been their 1st + RATTIE + Cundari . 110% it should've. Too many arguments to be made not to demand Rattie. Local kid, high upside, chemistry with Sven. I hope to hell he at least inquired about the kid. But instead he had to make the "goalie" move on an undrafted Swede (sorry if I'm quick to judge, but doesn't sound like a near NHL ready choice in comparison to other options out there) Should have taken Rattie in this trade, and used a trade with Ottawa or LA to pick up a closer to NHL ready goalie.

I hope we address the offense and a D with SIZE with these draft picks though.

The more 1sts, the better. Considering there's probably a 50/50 chance they'll pan out into good NHLers.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by anyonebutedmonton

Not saying LSAT grades are directly correlated to intelligence, but in order to get into Georgetown, he likely shot between a 165-170. This would qualify him for Mensa (top 2%). The organization is stupid, but the point stands that it is almost a certainty that Feaster is more intelligent than the vast majority of CP posters.

Does this make him an incredible GM? Nope. But it makes the likelihood that he just outright did not understand the situation, ie did not take the best deal on the table, very low.

Argue that he is overvaluing a first rounder. Argue that the two prospects that they targetted are crap. But, please, do not premise your "FIRE FEASTER NOW" arguments on the fact that he simply made a terrible decision and could have gotten way more.

Not to be mean but that's not how intelligence works or how education works or how a corporate hierarchy works. Jay feaster is a smart and competent guy but he is not above criticism because of his lsat score.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by TKB

What good is cap space if you are rebuilding though? its not like any good UFA will come play for a terrible rebuilding team.

If the contending teams have no cap space they have to play somewhere.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Finally I get to comment on this.

This trade isn't terrible. It's not Jarome-bad in terms of the context of the trade and the value of the players involved. But I'm positive that if Feaster gave the Blues an ultimatum involving one of their more highly touted and well known youngsters, he could've got it. And if he didn't get it today, I bet he would've got it on wednesday when other suitors would have also made bids to force the Blues GM's hand. I like the d-man coming back, I just think Jay should've demanded a goalie in another trade, with say.. Ottawa?! Why bother getting less of a sure thing G from the Jbo trade, when Stemp or Glencross could land you Bishop from the Sens?

IMO the return Should've been their 1st + RATTIE + Cundari . 110% it should have. Too many arguments to be made not to demand Rattie. Local kid, high upside, chemistry with Sven. I hope to hell he at least inquired about the kid. But instead he had to make the "goalie" move on an undrafted Swede (sorry if I'm quick to judge, but doesn't sound like a near NHL ready choice in comparison to other options out there) Should have taken Rattie in this trade, and used a trade with Ottawa or LA to pick up a closer to NHL ready goalie.

I hope we address the offense and a D with SIZE with these draft picks though.

The more 1sts, the better. Considering there's probably a 50/50 chance they'll pan out into good NHLers.

you are positive about nothing, you have no idea what they could or couldn't have got in this fantasy world of speculation

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by anyonebutedmonton

Its important to understand though, that I am not making the case that simply by going to the school he did, that he somehow has to be an A+ negotiator. Its just that it is highly unlikely that he made an outright stupid decision and left value on the table, which is something people have been advocating for in this thread.

There is so much to criticize in this organization, lets keep it on the stuff that makes rational sense at the very least.

I agree, Jay doesn't appear to be a good negotiator based on his trades thus far. Though in his defense (I hate to say that because I'm really disliking the man right now) the one trade he made when he wasn't hamstrung by a NTC/NMC he got Cammalleri and Ramo for a malcontent Bourque and a fringe prospect.

So he may see these first rounders as the ultimate in value, and not be especially thrilled with settling for second tier 'known' prospects and lesser picks. Thus when he gets Berra, he sees it as a boom or bust move, as opposed to Rattie who could just as easily bust, but may prompt STL to only give up a 2nd as opposed to a 1st.

If that's his reasoning, I can accept that.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

It's pretty safe to say that they do. A dude who gets a high LSAT score isn't driving a forklift or working with metal.

Yeah but what kind of intelligence? Logical problem solving skills? Sure. Doen´t measure social intelligence at all, who know how badly Feaster gets played by other GM´s because he has a low read on people (as an example, not advocating this either). Point being that the type of intelligence that people generally equate to schools don´t necessarily make people "smart".

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jacks

If the contending teams have no cap space they have to play somewhere.

Agreed, Jaybo and Iggy were not a good value at 14M not even close...you could easily replace their production pretty easily for that kinda money (not to mention you still have the picks)

[Orton14]

At first I thought was horrible trade but this guy been absolute junk except for half a season this year