Dairy Quota Discussion(split from CF-18 thread)

[Azure]

Originally Posted by blankall

Smaller quota owners? They are few and far between. Don't believe the dairy board's propaganda. Their other big lie is that the US pays for cheap dairy via increased taxes that lead to subsidies. What they don't tell you is that dairy subsidies in the US range from only $4-$.004 per person anually:

http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?f...progcode=dairy

Meanwhile, we're paying substantially extra per product.

Well I personally know quite a few dairy owners that milk around 200 cows. Not sure if you call that small or big, but to me that is small compared to the massive farms in the US.

In the US, eggs are the same way. Massive farms have taken over, pushing out the small guy. Hard to compete if you're making pennies on the dollar profit wise.

Not sure if I want to go that route. The US has a mess when it comes to 'big food.'

[Temporary_User]

No subsidies. If you can't run a business without someone who doesn't want your product giving you money to support you, you made a bad decision and choose the wrong business to run.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

No subsidies.

Agreed.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

No subsidies. If you can't run a business without someone who doesn't want your product giving you money to support you, you made a bad decision and choose the wrong business to run.

Except it isn't that easy for the families that have passed their business on from generation to generation.

I agree with you to a point, but I just don't like our quota system going the way the industry in the US has gone.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Azure

Except it isn't that easy for the families that have passed their business on from generation to generation.

If they want to stay in a specific career/property, that's something that they, and not the rest of society, should pay for.

For someone who seems to be a centrist, I find it quite surprising you'd favour the quota system at all.

[Deegee]

Big money in dairy, big hours to put in, too.

If there were ever farm financial statements where crying poor really bothers me, it is dairy financials.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Temporary_User

No subsidies. If you can't run a business without someone who doesn't want your product giving you money to support you, you made a bad decision and choose the wrong business to run.

Just to clarify, are you speaking against the Canadian system or the American one?

[bizaro86]

There's absolutely no justification for quotas. They're obscene from an economic point of view, and they hurt the poor more than anyone else, because they make basic necessities (milk, eggs, etc) more expensive than they otherwise would be.

If I was wealthy I'd buy this commercial during elections...

(voiceover) I'm opposed to transfers of money from consumers (montage of single mom with baby) transfering money to multi-millionaire land owners (fade to guy on 200k piece of equipment). Dairy quotas are hurting Canadians...

They're a regressive wealth transfer from consumers to a specific favoured group, they promote unhealthy choices by making healthy choices more expensive, and they hurt Canada's international credibility and our other industries by making it hard for us to engage in trade talks.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well I personally know quite a few dairy owners that milk around 200 cows. Not sure if you call that small or big, but to me that is small compared to the massive farms in the US.

In the US, eggs are the same way. Massive farms have taken over, pushing out the small guy. Hard to compete if you're making pennies on the dollar profit wise.

Not sure if I want to go that route. The US has a mess when it comes to 'big food.'

Why/how is this important?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well I personally know quite a few dairy owners that milk around 200 cows. Not sure if you call that small or big, but to me that is small compared to the massive farms in the US.

In the US, eggs are the same way. Massive farms have taken over, pushing out the small guy. Hard to compete if you're making pennies on the dollar profit wise.

Not sure if I want to go that route. The US has a mess when it comes to 'big food.'

It don't disagree that the small time Canadian dairy farmers need help. I'm not sure the best way to do that is to enforce a quota system. We basically have a system that prevents all small time people from getting in, and the ones that are in are slowly whittled away.

It's also not fair to compare our system to the US's big dairy producers. That's a much larger country with a much larger economy. Of course you're going to see more mass production. Getting rid of the quota system does not mean we will follow that route. If you're worried about mass production or the quality of your milk, maybe the best thing to do is address those issues directly. The quota system is overkill, which has economic effects that go well beyond your concerns.

As for your friends, the average cost per cow or a quota is 20,000, your friends with 200 cows (which is well above average for both Canada and the USA) own 4 million dollars in quotas.

http://www.vancouversun.com/Cayo+Can...#ixzz2Ol9rjJOo

As of 2009, the average dairy herd size in Alberta was 127. This rose from 94 in 2002 as more farms disappeared. The average for the USA is approximately 100:

http://www.albertamilk.com/aboutus/background.aspx

What we're seeing in Canada is small firms slowly being bought out by large firms. We're now at the pont in Western Canada where average farm size exceeds that of the USA. And at least with the USA's system, if you want to start a small dairy farm, you don't need to purchase 1 million dollars in quota to do it. It's not as though you can't buy organic milk from small farms in the USA either. They have mass produced cheap milk and more expensive organic milk on their shelves. Both are cheaper than what you find in Canada.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well I personally know quite a few dairy owners that milk around 200 cows. Not sure if you call that small or big, but to me that is small compared to the massive farms in the US.

In the US, eggs are the same way. Massive farms have taken over, pushing out the small guy. Hard to compete if you're making pennies on the dollar profit wise.

Not sure if I want to go that route. The US has a mess when it comes to 'big food.'

Its the corporations in the US that scare me. A poultry farmer must sign a contract with a processing company to be able to market his product. The processing companies have gotten so big that they can pay whatever they want for the product, driving profits down. The only way the farmer can turn a profit is to build more barns and produce more birds, significantly increasing his risk.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

There's absolutely no justification for quotas. They're obscene from an economic point of view, and they hurt the poor more than anyone else, because they make basic necessities (milk, eggs, etc) more expensive than they otherwise would be.

If I was wealthy I'd buy this commercial during elections...



They're a regressive wealth transfer from consumers to a specific favoured group, they promote unhealthy choices by making healthy choices more expensive, and they hurt Canada's international credibility and our other industries by making it hard for us to engage in trade talks.

I agree in some respects. yes, it does control the market and assume higher prices than if it was not supply managed. However, I believe we should protect the producer as well as the consumer. This system provides the opportunity for producers to produce products that are quality assured and assumes stable welfare for the animal.

If we consider abolishing the quota/supply management system, we would also likely be opening the door to GH being given to cows (like in the states) and in essence, a poorer regulated product- a poorer product.

This system works, and has been working since the 70's. Really, consider inflation and the cost to live. Paying what we do for a dozen eggs or 4L of milk is not all that much. Yes, it could be cheaper- but by that reasoning we could also argue about countless other products being cheaper.

If by hurting Canada's international credibility you mean by producing a Hormone-Free product, good animal welfare, and a Value product, than no.

Milk production in the states is so intensive that a lot cows only produce milk for 1 or 2 seasons before being culled out for slaughter for Udder issues. Hormones (GH) given to cows have been increasing the burden on a cows udder and destroying the integral structure of the udder.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by blankall

As of 2009, the average dairy herd size in Alberta was 127. This rose from 94 in 2002 as more farms disappeared. The average for the USA is approximately 100:

I find that interesting. I have only had the privilege of seeing the massive dairy farms in California. Smallest one we toured was 1200 head, which is gigantic compared to what we see in Western Canada. Largest were doing over 8000 head. Unreal!

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Azure

Except it isn't that easy for the families that have passed their business on from generation to generation.

I agree with you to a point, but I just don't like our quota system going the way the industry in the US has gone.

The problem for dairy and egg...

They never purchased their quotas, the system was created and if you had a farm you were given quota. Now those farmers are millionaires based on nothing more than a false market for their quota alone - not counting what they have profited from increased prices in a closed market.

Dont feel sorry for these "generational" farmers. They dont have it that bad.

Yes if the quota system is removed those farmers who have quote will lose the value of that quota, but if you didnt pay for something to begin with and now that value is 0 - should I really be asked to feels sorry for you ?

The only person I have a small ounce of sympathy is for those who have used that quota to expand their farms and if its removed will be stretched very thing. But again I dont feel to bad because the quota was never a real thing to being with.

I know of 3 families who have been directly impacted but this.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by krynski

Milk production in the states is so intensive that a lot cows only produce milk for 1 or 2 seasons before being culled out for slaughter for Udder issues. Hormones (GH) given to cows have been increasing the burden on a cows udder and destroying the integral structure of the udder.

I thought it was three years. It definately makes it tougher to find replacement animals down there. They are milking cows in the States that would have been culled as heifers here in Canada. Especially when the dairy market is hot.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Its the corporations in the US that scare me. A poultry farmer must sign a contract with a processing company to be able to market his product. The processing companies have gotten so big that they can pay whatever they want for the product, driving profits down. The only way the farmer can turn a profit is to build more barns and produce more birds, significantly increasing his risk.

Then regulate that system directly and create laws that target your concerns directly. How is a quota system the only way to address these issues?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

The problem for dairy and egg...

They never purchased their quotas, the system was created and if you had a farm you were given quota. Now those farmers are millionaires based on nothing more than a false market for their quota alone - not counting what they have profited from increased prices in a closed market.

Dont feel sorry for these "generational" farmers. They dont have it that bad.

Yes if the quota system is removed those farmers who have quote will lose the value of that quota, but if you didnt pay for something to begin with and now that value is 0 - should I really be asked to feels sorry for you ?

The only person I have a small ounce of sympathy is for those who have used that quota to expand their farms and if its removed will be stretched very thing. But again I dont feel to bad because the quota was never a real thing to being with.

I know of 3 families who have been directly impacted but this.

Also take into account these farmers have been reaping the benefits of vastly inflated milk prices for some time. So if they expanded their quotas, the capital to do so probably came from inflated milk prices. The price fixing we're talking about here is significant at 50+%.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by blankall

Then regulate that system directly and create laws that target your concerns directly. How is a quota system the only way to address these issues?

It isn't, I agree that there should be laws to ensure fair competition. However, in the age of consolidation that becomes more and more difficult.

[Cowboy89]

The quota system is a prefect example of crony capitalism.

[mykalberta]

To me the worst thing is that the false value of the quota threw the whole farming market out of wack (similar to what biofuels have done in the last 5 years to the grain market).

You had farmers who were given quota for dairy and eggs now leveraging that free quota to drive up land prices. At the same time you had grain farmers who were dealing with very low crop prices 90s-mid 2000s who had to compete against them.

Its very similar to if one farmer has an oilwell on the property and the other does not. I was amazed to see the number of hopper bins when I drove to drumheller last year. I couldnt believe that on some of the worst land in the province farmers were able to afford the luxury of hopper bins.

It doesnt take long to see that they arent competing on a level playing field when you see 100s of oil/gas wells on some properties down here.