Not Vancouver Bashing

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Odd timing for this thread; had to double check the OP date a few times.

The last week has been beautiful. Patios are open, windows are down on the car; beach was even getting a lot of people when I drove by today.
Vancouver has it's issues, but today's weather certainly isn't one.

Anyway, back to staring out my shoe box from a building owned 90% by foreign buyers & 50% empty at all times like all the other shoe boxes that are all going to drop 40% in price this year; into the rain at buildings that aren't tall enough, with mountains behind them that aren't big enough, with a bunch of homeless people & lululemon pants distracting everything anyway.

In all fairness your tree covered mountains are really just hills.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GGG

In all fairness your tree covered mountains are really just hills.

...and every week there's new batches of cookie cutter houses creeping up those hills.

[BloodFetish]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

with a bunch of homeless people & lululemon pants distracting everything anyway.

Yes, even our homeless wear Lululemon pants. Suck it, rest of Canada!

Looks like you're in one of the condo buildings at the end of False Creek. How do you like it around there? Nice sunsets, obviously!

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by blankall

I know many lawyers in Calgary, and the salary differences between them and Vancouver are slim beyond first year, even at larger firms.

I work at one of the larger firms and you're wrong. The payscale is basically set in stone, subject to minor variances for retention and a couple of specialist areas, basically. It's as I said - significantly better in Calgary than in Vancouver. I.e., a 3rd year Calgary associate is making about what a 5th year is in Vancouver, and Calgary has an actual bonus structure. The longer you stick around, the bigger the gap gets.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

I work at one of the larger firms and you're wrong. The payscale is basically set in stone, subject to minor variances for retention and a couple of specialist areas, basically. It's as I said - significantly better in Calgary than in Vancouver. I.e., a 3rd year Calgary associate is making about what a 5th year is in Vancouver, and Calgary has an actual bonus structure. The longer you stick around, the bigger the gap gets.

Like I said before, that really only applies to people working at large firms doing high end corporate work.

http://www.zsa.ca/zsa.php?fuseaction=main.pages&id=184

http://www.zsa.ca/zsa.php?fuseaction=main.pages&id=183

I know the person who put this together, and I can tell you it's accurate. With the exception of the large firm and medium/small firms that work in oil and gas, you're looking at a difference of 5-10%. Calgary large firm work is not known for its diversity and involves a lot of oil and gas work. So like I said before, if you want to move to Calgary and make a crap load of money working oil and gas, yes that's a possibility. If you're working in any other field of law besides oil and gas, the rates are comparable, but slightly higher in Calgary. Pay rates in Calgary are slightly higher than anywhere else in Canada though.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

...lululemon pants distracting everything anyway.

If there's one reason to live in Vancouver, it's this. Calgary has a lot, but Vancouver must be more than double the amount.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Good post, but don't forget about PEI. It makes NS look like a rat race. Cavendish is what 8km of beach. Spent a 2 week stretch there one summer as a kid, when we lived in Halifax.

PEI is so boring. I hit it on the way to Newfoundland on a road trip from Calgary. We were there about 36 hours and it was about 30 hours too long. Maybe if you had a cottage or something with stuff to do it would be cool, but as a tourist destination it's really lame.

That being said, it's pretty neat to go to for a quick visit like I did. Driving across Confederation Bridge was super trippy, the people are insanely nice (we slept in the back of my Explorer at a "picnic area" and a park warden or whatever tapped on my window to check that we were okay, not to kick us out), the soil there is a weird red colour instead of brown, annnnd that's about it. Six hours and you've seen and done all that really matters there.

St. John's on the other hand is a killer city. If I could transplant my friends and my job there I'd move in a heartbeat. Halifax is also pretty cool.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by wpgflamesfan

I think the weirdest part about Vancouver is its residents inability to hear any criticism of the city without immediately jumping to its defence.

This. We had a contractor at work here helping with a project and he was from Vancouver. When talk about different cities came up, he could absolutely not believe that I didn't like Vancouver (hate the weather, traffic, swarms of homeless, and pretty much everything else mentioned in this thread). He then started ragging on Calgary listing all the cons (cold, unpredictable weather, dryness, too spread out, etc) and I could understand them, I know the faults of this city but they don't bother me too much. But for the entire time he was working with us he just couldn't drop the Vancouver issue, it was extremely irritating

No city in the world is perfect. But those worldwide livability rankings have really warped the minds of those in Vancouver to believing that it is.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by T@T

Seriously?

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Seriously.

Originally Posted by flameswin

Seriously

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by blankall

So like I said before, if you want to move to Calgary and make a crap load of money working oil and gas, yes that's a possibility. If you're working in any other field of law besides oil and gas, the rates are comparable, but slightly higher in Calgary. Pay rates in Calgary are slightly higher than anywhere else in Canada though.

This is an odd classification... As far as I know, only one large firm in Calgary has an "oil and gas" department and even that is a marketing term for "corporate". Everyone else has the same departments as in any other city - litigation, securities, corporate, regulatory, tax, financial services. It's not as if you're in Calgary doing some extremely specific "oil and gas" practice area. Your clients just happen to be companies whose business relates to oil and gas - which in itself is varied enough; from exploration to extraction to midstream to downstream to services. In Vancouver, in contrast, your clients are largely mining companies. There may be slightly more diversity as to the kinds of issues you see but it's still the same practice area in Van as in Calgary. The difference between doing a prospectus for A Calgary O&G company listing on the TSXV isn't that different in reality compared to the equivalent job in Vancouver. And this is just the corporate side; if you're in litigation you see about as much variety as anywhere.

[sun]

Anyone who lived in residence at U of C (and uofa presumably) knows how annoying all the BC kids were. Non-stop bitching about Calgary and constantly talking about how Vancouver and Kelowna are sooooo much better. Couldn't keep their traps shut about it.

There is nothing Vancouverites love more than Vancouver.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

This is an odd classification... As far as I know, only one large firm in Calgary has an "oil and gas" department and even that is a marketing term for "corporate". Everyone else has the same departments as in any other city - litigation, securities, corporate, regulatory, tax, financial services. It's not as if you're in Calgary doing some extremely specific "oil and gas" practice area. Your clients just happen to be companies whose business relates to oil and gas - which in itself is varied enough; from exploration to extraction to midstream to downstream to services. In Vancouver, in contrast, your clients are largely mining companies. There may be slightly more diversity as to the kinds of issues you see but it's still the same practice area in Van as in Calgary. The difference between doing a prospectus for A Calgary O&G company listing on the TSXV isn't that different in reality compared to the equivalent job in Vancouver. And this is just the corporate side; if you're in litigation you see about as much variety as anywhere.

If what you're saying is true, you'd expect the numbers across the board to reflect that. Is there more litigation work in Calgary? Are the billing rates different? What is driving this suppossed increase in salary across the board.

A person working in insurance litigation is arbitrarily going to be making twice as much in Calgary than Vancouver despite working comparable hours? And the line between O&G work and non O&G work is not arbitrary. It's a huge industry with a huge amount of billable hours. The larger companies have excessive amounts of money to spend on legal fees that companies in other industries don't. And no, the corporate work is not he same. You're dealing with major government and environmental issues you won't find in other industries.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Sliver

PEI is so boring. I hit it on the way to Newfoundland on a road trip from Calgary. We were there about 36 hours and it was about 30 hours too long. Maybe if you had a cottage or something with stuff to do it would be cool, but as a tourist destination it's really lame.

That being said, it's pretty neat to go to for a quick visit like I did. Driving across Confederation Bridge was super trippy, the people are insanely nice (we slept in the back of my Explorer at a "picnic area" and a park warden or whatever tapped on my window to check that we were okay, not to kick us out), the soil there is a weird red colour instead of brown, annnnd that's about it. Six hours and you've seen and done all that really matters there.

St. John's on the other hand is a killer city. If I could transplant my friends and my job there I'd move in a heartbeat. Halifax is also pretty cool.

That's your opinion.

I loved it.




As a kid it was a great place to explore and play.

[darklord700]

I'm the OP of this thread. To be precise, I stayed there during the week of Mar 11 this year. Vancouver is far from being a bad city but I was just underwhelmed by it giving it's high livability ranking. After returning to my house in the NW Calgary burb', I can see some of the attractions Vancouver offers. While I love my bigger house here, nothing is within walking distance here unless you live on the Red Mile or downtown. At night, the burbs in Calgary are just boring bedroom communities with nothing much to do.

Still as a working man with a family to raise, I wouldn't choose Vancouver over Calgary. But in 20 years, maybe I can overlook the grey overcast sky and move there.

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by blankall

If what you're saying is true, you'd expect the numbers across the board to reflect that. Is there more litigation work in Calgary? Are the billing rates different? What is driving this suppossed increase in salary across the board.

The market, I guess. Alberta has had to draw lawyers almost exclusively from U of A and U of C historically, which is a relatively small pool for a legal market (at the big firm level) larger than Vancouver and a second market in Edmonton that certainly dwarfs anything else in B.C. (i.e. Victoria). As you say there is more money flying around in this province. The litigation pay scale is somewhat driven by the corporate side. The causes can be argued about, the result is still the same: if you're working in litigation here you're making considerably more money than your Vancouver counterpart. Again, this is big firm experience; if your argument is you could do as well hanging out a shingle in Van as CGY, that's great but there's no standard to compare to as people's success in that format largely depends on their individual circumstances and ability to generate business.

A person working in insurance litigation is arbitrarily going to be making twice as much in Calgary than Vancouver despite working comparable hours?

Yes. My firm does a lot of insurance litigation and the pay scale is about equal to the corporate side scale - that is to say, way way higher than in Vancouver and with a better bonus structure.

And the line between O&G work and non O&G work is not arbitrary. It's a huge industry with a huge amount of billable hours. The larger companies have excessive amounts of money to spend on legal fees that companies in other industries don't. And no, the corporate work is not he same. You're dealing with major government and environmental issues you won't find in other industries.

Of course it's "not the same". Every particular industry has its idiosyncracies and issues. Mining has its own, forestry has its own (the government and environmental issues in both of those areas are similar in various respects to O&G), manufacturing has its own, aerospace, IT. Why is Oil and Gas special? If I'm a securities lawyer in Toronto vs. Calgary, I'm still helping my clients issue shares / notes / sub receipts / whatever, there may be some differences as to what goes into the prospectus where one's an oil company and the other does something else, but it's the same job and the same legal area.

[sun]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

Speaking as a lawyer, the difference in pay for us is actually rather insane. I.e., as a 7th year call in Vancouver you are making literally 50% of what you are making in Calgary at the same firm (in terms of national firms with offices in both cities and their comparables).

Originally Posted by blankall

Also a lawyer. The difference in pay isn't that extreme. The only difference is there is more opportunity for high end corporate work in Calgary. If you want to spend all day doing O&G transactions, then yes, there is more opportunity in Calgary. Keep in mind, very few lawyers hang onto the corporate ladder into their 7th year in either of Calgary or Vancouver, which makes it a bit of a moot point.

I also think you're extrapolating a few examples of elite oil and gas guys for all lawyers in Calgary. I know many lawyers in Calgary, and the salary differences between them and Vancouver are slim beyond first year, even at larger firms. Also, good luck becoming one of those elite oil and gas guys if you're not born with the right connections.

Like I said before, there are a lot more jobs in the O&G industry in Calgary than Vancouver. If that's your thing, stay in Calgary. Vancouver has no comparable industry to that. Once again, I think Calgary is the outlier here, as oppossed to the norm. There are few cities in the world with an industry like the Alberta O & G industry, and, yes it does generate a lot of work, when things are good.

Originally Posted by AR_Six

I work at one of the larger firms and you're wrong. The payscale is basically set in stone, subject to minor variances for retention and a couple of specialist areas, basically. It's as I said - significantly better in Calgary than in Vancouver. I.e., a 3rd year Calgary associate is making about what a 5th year is in Vancouver, and Calgary has an actual bonus structure. The longer you stick around, the bigger the gap gets.

Originally Posted by blankall

Like I said before, that really only applies to people working at large firms doing high end corporate work.

http://www.zsa.ca/zsa.php?fuseaction=main.pages&id=184

http://www.zsa.ca/zsa.php?fuseaction=main.pages&id=183

I know the person who put this together, and I can tell you it's accurate. With the exception of the large firm and medium/small firms that work in oil and gas, you're looking at a difference of 5-10%. Calgary large firm work is not known for its diversity and involves a lot of oil and gas work. So like I said before, if you want to move to Calgary and make a crap load of money working oil and gas, yes that's a possibility. If you're working in any other field of law besides oil and gas, the rates are comparable, but slightly higher in Calgary. Pay rates in Calgary are slightly higher than anywhere else in Canada though.

Originally Posted by AR_Six

This is an odd classification... As far as I know, only one large firm in Calgary has an "oil and gas" department and even that is a marketing term for "corporate". Everyone else has the same departments as in any other city - litigation, securities, corporate, regulatory, tax, financial services. It's not as if you're in Calgary doing some extremely specific "oil and gas" practice area. Your clients just happen to be companies whose business relates to oil and gas - which in itself is varied enough; from exploration to extraction to midstream to downstream to services. In Vancouver, in contrast, your clients are largely mining companies. There may be slightly more diversity as to the kinds of issues you see but it's still the same practice area in Van as in Calgary. The difference between doing a prospectus for A Calgary O&G company listing on the TSXV isn't that different in reality compared to the equivalent job in Vancouver. And this is just the corporate side; if you're in litigation you see about as much variety as anywhere.

Originally Posted by blankall

If what you're saying is true, you'd expect the numbers across the board to reflect that. Is there more litigation work in Calgary? Are the billing rates different? What is driving this suppossed increase in salary across the board.

A person working in insurance litigation is arbitrarily going to be making twice as much in Calgary than Vancouver despite working comparable hours? And the line between O&G work and non O&G work is not arbitrary. It's a huge industry with a huge amount of billable hours. The larger companies have excessive amounts of money to spend on legal fees that companies in other industries don't. And no, the corporate work is not he same. You're dealing with major government and environmental issues you won't find in other industries.

Originally Posted by AR_Six

The market, I guess. Alberta has had to draw lawyers almost exclusively from U of A and U of C historically, which is a relatively small pool for a legal market (at the big firm level) larger than Vancouver and a second market in Edmonton that certainly dwarfs anything else in B.C. (i.e. Victoria). As you say there is more money flying around in this province. The litigation pay scale is somewhat driven by the corporate side. The causes can be argued about, the result is still the same: if you're working in litigation here you're making considerably more money than your Vancouver counterpart. Again, this is big firm experience; if your argument is you could do as well hanging out a shingle in Van as CGY, that's great but there's no standard to compare to as people's success in that format largely depends on their individual circumstances and ability to generate business.

Yes. My firm does a lot of insurance litigation and the pay scale is about equal to the corporate side scale - that is to say, way way higher than in Vancouver and with a better bonus structure.

Of course it's "not the same". Every particular industry has its idiosyncracies and issues. Mining has its own, forestry has its own (the government and environmental issues in both of those areas are similar in various respects to O&G), manufacturing has its own, aerospace, IT. Why is Oil and Gas special? If I'm a securities lawyer in Toronto vs. Calgary, I'm still helping my clients issue shares / notes / sub receipts / whatever, there may be some differences as to what goes into the prospectus where one's an oil company and the other does something else, but it's the same job and the same legal area.

Lawyers.

[Blaster86]

They also riot a lot.

Wait, what?

[Burninator]

The last conversation I had with someone who lived in Vancouver was about the weather and how much they hated it. He said he would rather have the dry cold (with colder temps.) than the damp cold that Van has. He sounded crazy to me, but I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

If what you're saying is true, you'd expect the numbers across the board to reflect that. Is there more litigation work in Calgary? Are the billing rates different? What is driving this suppossed increase in salary across the board.

A person working in insurance litigation is arbitrarily going to be making twice as much in Calgary than Vancouver despite working comparable hours? And the line between O&G work and non O&G work is not arbitrary. It's a huge industry with a huge amount of billable hours. The larger companies have excessive amounts of money to spend on legal fees that companies in other industries don't. And no, the corporate work is not he same. You're dealing with major government and environmental issues you won't find in other industries.

Well first of all "corporate work" is such an expansive term that we could be talking about anything. The fact that your client is in O&G doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the work you do, you could quite easily be doing exclusively finance work. Things like environmental aren't likely to be handled by general corporate associates, they'll be handled by people who specialize in those areas. The legal issues on a typical debt offering or other capital markets type matter aren't going to be that different for an O&G company and a company like Lululemon. The risks and other disclosures will obviously be very different, but the operation of the financial and legal parts aren't all that tied to the industry of the issuer.

[seattleflamer]

Vancouver's version of COP....