Chinook Centre's Security - Highly Aggressive? You decide.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

You don't see a problem with this statement? "The only excess use of force." So they used excess force?

Also using the scissors is a copout excuse, there's no reason to believe that the Guards thought he had scissors on him. He just happened to have them discovered after the fact.

Where was the "they" in the use of force outside of the excess that ONE guard used? You are lumping in the entire team for the actions of one person. That's not appropriate. And that person was removed from the situation twice if I saw that video Correctly.

The Scissors comment was purely speculative and not meant as a factual assertion to the events that may have transpired.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Where was the "they" in the use of force outside of the excess that ONE guard used? You are lumping in the entire team for the actions of one person. That's not appropriate. And that person was removed from the situation twice if I saw that video Correctly.

The Scissors comment was purely speculative and not meant as a factual assertion to the events that may have transpired.

Sorry, I never meant to insinuate that all the guards were at fault. I think it's clear there's at least one there was trying to stop the situation from escalating. But, since you're saying the one guard used excess force (your words) would you not be okay with him being fired and charges pressed? I mean it's not just okay to start kidney punching some guy on the ground.

Originally Posted by dammage79

Aside from that, the whole situation went down right.

Based on the incomplete video? Seems a bit biased to say either way.

[JohnnyB]

A person who is holding a pair of scissors and is passive is the same as someone actively assaulting you.

???

That is absurd.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by dammage79

This is the National use of force model used by all provinces that require Security personnel to be licensed.

Security personnel have the right to arrest someone under a citizens arrest. To use restraining devices I.E zip ties or hand cuffs, you must have a special licensing (at least in B.C but since AB uses protect licensing for all security I would assume they have it as well).

This guy is clearly active resistant allowing them to use controlling force, being a vocal victim during the restraining process while physically resisting is a very common thing these days. The only excess use of force I saw in that video was the one guy who came out of nowhere and started punching the guy in the sides to get his arms into an arrestable position, that is a total cop move and he isn't one, he is a licensed security guard. Aside from that, the whole situation went down right.

If the person was in fact trespassing with a banned substance they have every right to make that arrest. If his scissors were out in plain sight they could be considered a weapon. Especially if you have to ask this person to leave (acting as a passive resistant person while holding onto a potential weapon is the same as being assaultive due to the added threat).

I've never been a mall cop but I do have experience in security and more often than not, youtube videos only catch the aftermath of the "Victims" actions. Not the initial action and it is very trendy these days to "take it to the man" with video of police brutality or excessive force. Makes for a good lawsuit as well. And guys like that are very well aware of this. Easy way to get a good pay out. Seriously, I've worked in places that get sued on the regular without one of them getting a settlement or any after effects because the Judge tosses them while being mad he missed lunch for this waste of time.

As much as it appears these guys are Victims, they intend for it to look that way. No joke. But he got what he wanted in this situation because of that one guard who came in to massage his kidneys.

Is he? He's clearly actively resistant to getting stomped on by 6 guys, but where was he before? Your line of thinking would make it acceptable for the security staff to cause the escalation and then justify it by the victim responding as you would expect any average person to, by resisting.

You don't get to precipitate and escalate a situation and then blame the victim for responding in kind. That's not how this works.

[Northendzone]

any chance the perp was running with the scissors and the security team interved for his own protection?

[jayswin]

Wow, dammage79 is reaching so much to justify this, that you'd almost think he was a part of it or knows one of the guys invovled or something.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by valo403

Is he? He's clearly actively resistant to getting stomped on by 6 guys, but where was he before?

And this is the telling point to the fella's post.

He posts a National Use of Force Model and then proceeds to demonstrate zero working knowledge of it by proceeding to work backwards through it.

i.e. His procedure consists of working from the outside in, physically restraining the fella first, followed by then stating that he was actively resisistant to the physical restraint.

[jammies]

Whatever, the guy probably owns a pitbull and cheers for the Canucks.

Seriously, though, while excessive use of force is never justified, this is a pretty minor issue. This isn't the police putting someone in the hospital for weeks. Fire the guy throwing the punches, and issue a public apology.

As for buddy, ban him from the mall as he seems incapable of acting like an adult, what with carrying around his weed scissors (what, was a weed emergency going to come up?) and sitting on the escalator like a damn fool. He's had his 5 minutes of fame, now the big people are busy so he should shut up and go away.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I am fairly certain my wife feels more safe knowing these guys aren't afraid to do what is required (not that I know what took place that night), just sayin'.

Really, my take is that these guys are untrustworthy.

[meanmachine13]

Considering the situation resulted because the victim was sitting down on an escalator, this is completely excessive force. Its also crazy how those 2 other guards come running in and have to be held back.

I work in security and this level of force is unacceptable. I have had to deal with situations much more serious than this and have never had to punch anyone.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by meanmachine13

If, as one account claimed, the situation resulted because the victim was sitting down on an escalator, this is completely excessive force. Its also crazy how those 2 other guards come running in and have to be held back, regardless of what else has happened.

I work in security and this level of force is unacceptable, if the person wasn't doing anything violent. I have had to deal with situations much more serious than this and have never had to punch anyone.

FYP

Originally Posted by valo403

Is he? He's clearly actively resistant to getting stomped on by 6 guys, but where was he before? Your line of thinking would make it acceptable for the security staff to cause the escalation and then justify it by the victim responding as you would expect any average person to, by resisting.

You don't get to precipitate and escalate a situation and then blame the victim for responding in kind. That's not how this works.

He is in the video, we don't know about before, save one account which might not have had complete information or might be biased towards the victim. If he wasn't actively resisting in the video, it would have taken about 10 seconds to get the cuffs on, not over a minute with the guards actively struggling to get him to stay still. So based solely on the video we have, you can only assume he was actively resisting.

I am also assuming that there is video elsewhere which establishes if he was beforehand, which really is what needs to be relied upon when considering if the level of force is appropriate (aside from the punching, which is over the line for sure).

[undercoverbrother]

I still say there is more to this than meets the eye. I read this article:

http://www.leaderpost.com/technology...756/story.html


This portion jumped out:

Doussept said he had just finished a 10-hour shift as a cook at a downtown restaurant when Angie Bateman, 32, picked him up for a date — their first. They bought movie tickets and then decided to wander Chinook Centre before the film started. Doussept, who said he was exhausted, sat down on the escalator.
That got the attention of two security guards, he said. They told him to stand up. A verbal exchange followed. When Doussept got off the escalator, they followed him, he said. His face and neck tattoos tend to draw negative attention, he said, and he felt they were judging him by how he looked.
The conversation got more intense, he said, and he was told to leave the mall. He admits he isn’t the kind of man to stay quiet and that he argued back with the guards. And when one of the guards said that Doussept smelled like marijuana, he admitted that he did have a small baggie on him, for his own personal use.
Things escalated after he stepped outside the mall, Doussept said. There was yelling on both sides. And he admits he resisted the guards, but he said it’s because they were taking shots at him.
“I never, ever raised a hand at them,” he said.

[puckluck2]

He had the right to resist if these clowns had no right to "arrest" him.

Just a bunch of $10/hr rent-a-cops losing their cool.

[ricosuave]

its funny how people like this often find themselves in situations like this.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

its funny how people like this often find themselves in situations like this.

lol, I nominate you for the sweeping generalization award.

[Zulu29]

At the end of the day their job is to act as a deterrent to threats of crime in the mall. Once that "threat" is gone out your front doors its no longer your problem.

People have brought up scissors as being a reason why they may have acted so harshly. If you are unarmed and you see a person with scissors who you believe is antagonized, why would you approach him and apprehend him? Isn't that putting yourself at undue risk?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

At the end of the day their job is to act as a deterrent to threats of crime in the mall. Once that "threat" is gone out your front doors its no longer your problem.

People have brought up scissors as being a reason why they may have acted so harshly. If you are unarmed and you see a person with scissors who you believe is antagonized, why would you approach him and apprehend him? Isn't that putting yourself at undue risk?

Incorrect. They are responsible for the mall "grounds", that includes the interior and exterior. All that land that is the parking lot is their responsibility as well.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by zamler

lol, I nominate you for the sweeping generalization award.

Really I think it's neck and neck.....

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Just a bunch of $10/hr rent-a-cops losing their cool.

[KTrain]

If this happened to me I would be embarrassed as hell. From his Facebook posts, he seems pretty proud of what happened.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Rathji

FYP



He is in the video, we don't know about before, save one account which might not have had complete information or might be biased towards the victim. If he wasn't actively resisting in the video, it would have taken about 10 seconds to get the cuffs on, not over a minute with the guards actively struggling to get him to stay still. So based solely on the video we have, you can only assume he was actively resisting.

I am also assuming that there is video elsewhere which establishes if he was beforehand, which really is what needs to be relied upon when considering if the level of force is appropriate (aside from the punching, which is over the line for sure).

He is only actively resisting in the video because 6 security guards are on top of him. Do you expect him to just go into passive mode? These aren't cops. These are security guards. The authority to even engage in this type of restraint is suspect.

Video of the lead up is certainly crucial, but based on what we have the attempt to say that this was justified (other than the punches) under that protocol diagram was total garbage. You don't get to work through it backwards to justify your actions.