Is Coaching the Biggest Problem?

[zamler]

You're saying Hartley has done an amazing job considering the group of players he has to work with, but we're currently tied with the Oilers with a game in hand. So if we had poor coaching we'd be even worse?

[Locke]

I think the biggest problem is that they're just not very good.

Theres some talented players on this team, just not nearly enough.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by pylon

The biggest problem is the fact that the team went on a 1 in a 1000 fluke run 8 years ago, and everyone has assumed that is the metric to compare the team to. They were a mediocre team in 04, that found some magic, and now you have the same mediocre core, older and performing to their true abilities.

1 in a 1000 run? Found some magic?

They played like a team and outworked their opponents every night.

I remember telling everyone who would listen that they were going to go deep in the playoffs. And there were a lot of other people saying the same thing. I don't remember it being any kind of surprise or miracle at all.

[IgiTang]

IC, so youre in the "its all the coaches fault" camp... Gotcha!

Good teams lose hockey games, bad teams win games. Young teams go through growing pains and old teams slow down. In a league of such Parody, that one bonafide #1 Center makes a huge difference in your own end when they match against other teams top units.

I could care less about what the Oilers are doing up north, where they sit in the standings. I care about the Flames and in saying that, are you bored when watching Flames games? Would you prefer the Flames play the shutdown type game? And further to that, do you think they would be successful if they were coached to play smother/shutdown hockey with this group of players?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

1 in a 1000 run? Found some magic?

They played like a team and outworked their opponents every night.

I remember telling everyone who would listen that they were going to go deep in the playoffs. And there were a lot of other people saying the same thing. I don't remember it being any kind of surprise or miracle at all.

You must be kidding.

2004? A 6th seed defeating 1st, 2nd and 3rd seeded teams in the west and taking on the Eastern Conference Champions in the Finals?

That is, by any definition, a 'surprise' at least! If not a miracle.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by zamler

You're saying Hartley has done an amazing job considering the group of players he has to work with, but we're currently tied with the Oilers with a game in hand. So if we had poor coaching we'd be even worse?

Almost everyone outside of Calgary had the Oilers ahead of the Flames this year. Despite Kipper being hurt for a month, the Flames are ahead of them.

[Flames Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by mrmastodonfarm

lack of talent in certain positions too. The wings are pretty decent overall, a good collection of wingers.. But just a huge void down the middle is a massive problem.

To address the topic.. No it's not just coaching but over the years that's been one of the things. This team went from one of the best coaches in the nhl to jim playfair and mike keenan, who was a shade of his former self. It went from a high level of leadership from behind the bench, to nothing. Playfair was a big softie, which doesn't help as moving from assistant to head coach is almost impossible to do successfully at the nhl level.

After that a general apathy seemed to set into the locker room over time. This is blamed on everyone, the coach, the captain, everyone. Once apathy sets into a work place it's damn near impossible to get it out and i think that's the problem now. No one person can change that and that's why i'm all for turning over everything. It's not one persons fault but it needs to be corrected.

We've seen guys brought in who tend to have jump and vigor and give them time on the flames and it's sucked out of them, it's a retirement home. Not bringing in young players to provide that spark doesn't help either.

We've seen wideman get frustrated at it earlier in the season, which doesn't surprise anyone.

It's apathy, no passion, they don't care.

Sure you see glimpses of it but it doesn't last long. Even last night vs nashville, it wasn't that great of a game, it was pretty pedestrian like.

Before darryl sutter was hired it was there too. I remember one long losing streak in 2002-2003 where craig conroy was almost laughing at the lack of losing. Sutter brought a tight rope and didn't let go and when he was gone a lack of leadership behind the bench let it seep right back in.

I don't place the blame at any ones feet in particular, though jarome iginla being the captain surely some blame lays there... But this issue is bigger. The work force is apathetic and it's time to gut it and start anew. I really don't even care how it happened as i only care how to fix it and get it out of the system all together.

The flames need two weeks of constant diarrhea to clear the system, get some new liquid into the body and start fresh.

this!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Locke

You must be kidding.

2004? A 6th seed defeating 1st, 2nd and 3rd seeded teams in the west and taking on the Eastern Conference Champions in the Finals?

That is, by any definition, a 'surprise' at least! If not a miracle.

I stand by my post. And I bought the playoff ticket package to back up my view with cash (was not a STH until that point)

Were they the favourites? Obviously not. But it was far from a miracle.

Edit: nhl.com doesn't let you check the standings by day that many years back, but if I remember correctly they wre under 500 in early December. After that point - once Kipper got going - they were far from a 6th place team the rest of the way.

[FlamesAddiction]

I just can't believe some people expect an immediate turnaround with a simple coaching change. Talk about the instant gratification generation.

Every once in a while, a coaching change has an immediate short term effect, but it is almost always just the beginning of a medium or longer term solution, especially when it involves changing the culture of team and not just "x's and o's".

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by zamler

Its gotta be the coach, management has tried everything else.

Why did you use green text when you arent really being sarcastic?

[Huntingwhale]

Doesnt matter if Scotty Bowman is coaching. When you have a team with 1 or 2 natural centers, you are going to struggle. So no, coaching is not the issue.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I stand by my post. And I bought the playoff ticket package to back up my view with cash (was not a STH until that point)

Were they the favourites? Obviously not. But it was far from a miracle.

Edit: nhl.com doesn't let you check the standings by day that many years back, but if I remember correctly they wre under 500 in early December. After that point - once Kipper got going - they were far from a 6th place team after that.

Okay, if you're going to stand by that, then I'm going to have to have you declared to be some sort of hockey savant.

[Erick Estrada]

Hartley has been a mixed bag. A lot of players are enjoying bounce back offensive seasons under him but in similar fashion to the Keenan years it's been at the cost of pretty shoddy defensive play which has led to substandard goaltending play. The Flames have taken advantage of loose teams and mediocre goaltending but agains top teams like the Ducks, Kings they are very easily handled.

That said we all know the issues are deeper than coaching with this team. The makeup is flawed due to the lack of proper center ice men. There is complacency in the locker room from the captain down which pretty well leaves all the motivation tasks on the coaching staff alone. Darryl Sutter seemed to be able to keep the focus and motivation but he knew that there would be a shelf life having to day in and day out prod these guys to keep going. That's a big problem as coaches like Blysma and Quenneville can focus on technical coaching more and motivating less because they know their captains are supremely motivated and ensure that complacency doesn't set in.

Not hating on Iginla but the Flames need a new captain. A captain that has more hunger that is willing to take players to task.

[Daradon]

Yup, gotta agree with the posters that say the center position has been, and is, our biggest problem. In fact it's probably the worst it's been in recent memory now.

Hartley has actually been doing really well with what he has. Hope he sticks around for a while.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Locke

Okay, if you're going to stand by that, then I'm going to have to have you declared to be some sort of hockey savant.

Did you not think they had a real chance?

Did you think LA was a miracle team last year? They were 8th so that's even crazier, right? (using your metric)

They were well coached, had a fantastic goalie, grit, determination, depth at defense, and smart players throughout the lineup.

They were underdogs, but lots of people were talking about them - a common view was that they were the team no one wanted to face.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

1 in a 1000 run? Found some magic?

They played like a team and outworked their opponents every night.

I remember telling everyone who would listen that they were going to go deep in the playoffs. And there were a lot of other people saying the same thing. I don't remember it being any kind of surprise or miracle at all.

I'll back that up.
The Flames seemingly had been plagued by injury all season, and finally got healthy at the right time. Kipper was a great surprise. I remember the buzz for avid hockey fans was that the upper placed teams did not want to face Calgary in the opening rounds.
The Flames playoff run was a great surprise only to the casual fans who never looked past the standings position.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Did you not think they had a real chance?

Did you think LA was a miracle team last year? They were 8th so that's even crazier, right? (using your metric)

They were well coached, had a fantastic goalie, grit, determination, depth at defense, and smart players throughout the lineup.

They were underdogs, but lots of people were talking about them - a common view was that they were the team no one wanted to face.

Yes. I absolutely thought LA was a miracle last year.

If not only because they were the 8th seed, then because I have never seen a team be that dominant in the playoffs.

They went 16-4 in the playoffs. That is magic.

[JayFlowmeester]

Originally Posted by pylon

The biggest problem is the fact that the team went on a 1 in a 1000 fluke run 8 years ago, and everyone has assumed that is the metric to compare the team to. They were a mediocre team in 04, that found some magic, and now you have the same mediocre core, older and performing to their true abilities.

Yeah it had nothing to do with the heart and passion the teamed played with, outworking every team every night, or the atmosphere we created in the dome that other teams hated playing in......
Peer magic...

[atb]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

It was a TV broadcast and Wideman was frustrated/confused about a PK line change or something. I don't have a link for it and I might even be overthinking the incident. I'm sure someone can back me up on it though, maybe flesh out what happened?

Can't even remember if it was TSN or on Sportsnet now to be honest.

It was TSN, Flames were being brutal on a PP, and Wideman yelled when he got back to the bench something like "What are we doing out here?", referring to the lack of communication and terrible passing.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That said we all know the issues are deeper than coaching with this team. The makeup is flawed due to the lack of proper center ice men. There is complacency in the locker room from the captain down which pretty well leaves all the motivation tasks on the coaching staff alone.

Not hating on Iginla but the Flames need a new captain. A captain that has more hunger that is willing to take players to task.

Not to be a dick here, but how do you know? How do you know that Jarome doesnt take guys aside, have phone calls, lets guys know they arent doing their job?

Last night Cammi, Jarome and Tanguay were on a 3 on 2, Tanguay had the puck on the left side, Cammi went to the far side post and Jarome went high slot. Tanguay made a garbage pass and Cammi and Jarome talked about it on the way back to the bench and it wasnt just a "nice try" kind of conversation. There was a discussion on what went wrong with that play. That is just one example where its clear guys talk to Jarome and i get the impression they feel they need to explain when things dont workout.

Im so damn tired of people claiming they have half a clue what goes on behind closed doors on a hockey team. Its absolute BS and if theres no proof, dont try and act like you have any idea of what youre talking about. If youre not on the Flames coaching staff or on their roster, you have no damn idea about anything regarding these peoples character, passion, principles or morals.