Toronto Raptors 2012/2013 season

[moon]

Derozan absolutely useless as usual on that play as well.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Yeah, the double-teaming was working well with Amir, it might have worked ok with JV, but it had zero chance of working with Gray. Credit to Kobe for playing so well that Casey thought he needed to double-team every time, but that was a gift basket. And that was only one of a huge number of coaching issues last night.

Casey is a buffoon.

[killer_carlson]

I sat in shock when JV didnt get the call after Amir fouled out.

People crap on the Flames for development choices, but that one took the cake. As a few of you have said, what better learning opportunity than to go in against the league's best in crunch time?

Brutal.

[KOgear]

Originally Posted by moon

Derozan absolutely useless as usual on that play as well.

On the offensive side of the ball he played really well, and I wish casey ran plays for him since he was hot. Instead it was Chukerson and Gay chucking the game away. Yes his defense blows, but I dont' know if being a gym rat will fix that. Derozan has been working on one part of his game every summer and is slowly improving.

4Q 09:33 - Rudy Gay enters the game for Landry Fields
4Q 09:08 - Rudy Gay lost ball turnover (Metta World Peace steals)
4Q 08:23 - Rudy Gay misses 23-foot three point jumper
4Q 06:01 - Rudy Gay misses 19-foot jumper
4Q 04:30 - Rudy Gay offensive foul (Kobe Bryant draws the foul)
4Q 02:03 - Dwight Howard blocks Rudy Gay 's 10-foot jumper
4Q 01:06 - Rudy Gay defensive rebound
4Q 01:01 - Rudy Gay offensive Charge (Steve Nash draws the foul)
4Q 00:00 - Rudy Gay misses 18-foot jumper
OT 04:26 - Rudy Gay shooting foul (Dwight Howard draws the foul)
OT 01:59 - Rudy Gay misses 15-foot jumper
OT 00:49 - Rudy Gay misses 28-foot three point jumper
OT 00:27 - Rudy Gay misses 15-foot jumper
OT 00:02 - Rudy Gay misses 16-foot jumper

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by KOgear

On the offensive side of the ball he played really well, and I wish casey ran plays for him since he was hot. Instead it was Chukerson and Gay chucking the game away. Yes his defense blows, but I dont' know if being a gym rat will fix that. Derozan has been working on one part of his game every summer and is slowly improving.

4Q 09:33 - Rudy Gay enters the game for Landry Fields
4Q 09:08 - Rudy Gay lost ball turnover (Metta World Peace steals)
4Q 08:23 - Rudy Gay misses 23-foot three point jumper
4Q 06:01 - Rudy Gay misses 19-foot jumper
4Q 04:30 - Rudy Gay offensive foul (Kobe Bryant draws the foul)
4Q 02:03 - Dwight Howard blocks Rudy Gay 's 10-foot jumper
4Q 01:06 - Rudy Gay defensive rebound
4Q 01:01 - Rudy Gay offensive Charge (Steve Nash draws the foul)
4Q 00:00 - Rudy Gay misses 18-foot jumper
OT 04:26 - Rudy Gay shooting foul (Dwight Howard draws the foul)
OT 01:59 - Rudy Gay misses 15-foot jumper
OT 00:49 - Rudy Gay misses 28-foot three point jumper
OT 00:27 - Rudy Gay misses 15-foot jumper
OT 00:02 - Rudy Gay misses 16-foot jumper

Gay has been hopeless of late but there is a reason. He is playing injured. Why they feel the need to play him despite the fact they have zero chance at the playoffs is beyond me. They did sit him against the Cavs. In other news Bargnani injured yet again / they can't even showcase the putz cause he has another oowie.

[bluejays]

Surprised nobody has posted about Bargnani being injured and out the rest of the year. While he didn't warrent any playing time with some really bad play, something tells me the Raps are sitting him out the year simply because they don't want him around the team. It's more of a nagging injury where normally he'd play through it.

Anyway, I'm personally not happy about this because it does absolutely nothing to enhance his trade value. If I were to guess, I think he starts off the year on the Raps bench, then gets traded by Christmas when presumably he'd get better. I don't know how this team can drastically improve though, aside from somehow gunning for a top 2 pick this year.

[moon]

Always great to see scrub Bassy Teflair helping the team out with a technical.

[killer_carlson]

I suspect Casey may have got a tap on the shoulder after that LA game.

Jv with 34 minutes tonight
Ross over 20 minutes

Good.

[OzSome]

It's over for the Raptors this season so they might as well play the young guys on a critical time so they'll learn by mistakes. JV, Ross and even play Derozan more.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by OzSome

It's over for the Raptors this season so they might as well play the young guys on a critical time so they'll learn by mistakes. JV, Ross and even play Derozan more.

Yeah they have finally got around to what they should have been doing all year. There was no way they were coming back from that horrendous start. Gay or no Gay. Should have been all about development but you have a GM and a coach who could both be fired with ease. Neither has done anything in their tenure to merit consideration going forward.

[Chump]

Interesting article on the Raptors and SportsVU cameras:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...cal-revolution

[octothorp]

Definitely worth the read, thanks for posting that. I'd heard about this for a few years, but this is the first real examples I've seen, and I'm impressed. I think it makes sense that raw statistical analysis is less useful in basketball than baseball, or even football; capturing far more data than is typically available is a fascinating approach.

Besides, any analysis that says that Valanciunas' athleticism and high activity level more than make up for his tendency to overhelp and get caught out of position is solid analysis in my opinion. However, the conflict over a 3pt heavy offense is really interesting. It sounds to me like part of the problem may be that the simulation is basically looking for what the most effective use of each individual possession is, without taking into account how working the ball inside and using the full shot clock forces the opposing team to work harder on defense and thus makes their offense less effective over the course of a game.

[St. Pats]

Games getting uglier and uglier. At least Val looks good. Other than that some dreadfully bad basketball.

[killer_carlson]

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Glad to see Casey got the memo to see what JV and Ross can do. He still has to get JV more touches and plays with his back to the basket in the poat. Lets see what he can do down there and what he needs to work on.

Fwiw, Calderon has been a stud for Detroit since going over in that trade. Im pleased for him.

[Gord Wappel]

What are odds raptors make playoffs next year ?
I'd guess its 50 / 50
I doubt they'll get much or anything for Bargnani.
Maybe Valenciunas will be a beast and Ross can add something.
Derozan, Gay and Amir should be solid.
Is Lowry good enough to be the main guy ?
Most of the other crummy teams from a few years ago are riding high. Why did we get left out ?

[bluejays]

I'd actually be surprised if Amir is with the team next year. Same goes for Lowry. If anything, Colangelo doesn't fall in love with his signings as has been shown time and time again. The one exception has always been Bargnani, and now he's a goner. It's not that I don't like Amir, but his offensive potential along with his lack of range really limits him on a championship team to be a guy coming off the bench. He's a great player to have and I think that's the reason he's as good as gone - he's a bargaining chip. Lowry may stick around, but he's been inconsistent and that's the last thing you need from your PG.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Gord Wappel

What are odds raptors make playoffs next year ?
I'd guess its 50 / 50
I doubt they'll get much or anything for Bargnani.
Maybe Valenciunas will be a beast and Ross can add something.
Derozan, Gay and Amir should be solid.
Is Lowry good enough to be the main guy ?
Most of the other crummy teams from a few years ago are riding high. Why did we get left out ?

With the lineup as currently assembled, I'd say 50/50 is about right, maybe a little better.
Bargnani's value is going to be based on factors other than his recent play: particularly, someone desperate to move an even worse contract (like Boozer or P. Gasol).

I like the odds of Valanciunas being a beast next year. Another good offseason working with Sabonis and spending time in the weight room would do wonders. It looked to me he came back a few pounds heavier and stronger after his injury. The way he battled Drummond and Monroe last game was really impressive. His teammates need to look for him more. I think Gay is one of the few Raptors players who actually makes a point of feeding JV, possibly because he's developed that habit from playing with Marc Gasol.

Ross I still like. I think he can be an incredibly useful roleplayer, especially given that he doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, unlike most Raptors.

Lowry, I'm up in the air on. Those who have been on this thread a while know that I was a huge proponent of them getting Lowry, but I have a hard time evaluating if he's the right PG for this team. It's just such an isolation-heavy offense that it's difficult to see any PG really making a big impact. Maybe they just need a 3-point shooting PG, and run the offense through the wings? He shows good handles in the lane, decent awareness, and there's no reason why he can't be a good pick-and-roll PG, unless it's just a lack of comfort. He should make that his #1 offseason priority.

I don't really agree with the suggestion that most of the other crummy teams from a few years ago are riding high. In the east two years ago, the non-playoff teams were essentially the same as this year, with Brooklyn the only big exception, and Milwaukee improving from first team out to last team in. Cleveland is the only non-playoff team in the east that I think will improve faster than the Raptors.


I think the Raptors need to go with the current core into next season (the current core being Gay, DeRozan, Lowry, Johnson, Fields, Valanciunas, and Ross), and then make a decision in the first month about whether that's a core you can build around. If they show that they can be a .500 roster out of training camp, that's good enough to build around for the time being. Develop the current pieces, aim for the playoffs next year, and see if they can resign Lowry and Gay on a package deal for $30 million. That will set them up for a situation where in 2015 offseason, they'll have Gay, Lowry, DeRozan, Ross, Valanciunas, plus two more first-round draft picks all signed for about $50 million, and depending on where the cap is at, about $20 million to spend on one elite UFA. Hopefully by that time, this core will have had two years in the playoffs, and it becomes an appealing destination for a big UFA PF to come in and be the finishing piece. Let's say they make a pitch for Kevin Love at around $19 million (basically out-bidding everyone else, because that's what you've got to do to get him). Here's your hypothetical 2015-16 Raptors roster:
Valanciunas/MLE veteran
Love/2014 rookie
Gay/bi-annual exception veteran
DeRozan/Ross
Lowry/2015 rookie

As an alternate to going after a big UFA, they've got nearly $20 million in expiring contracts that they can move for some team looking to shed salary. The key to planning to contend around 2015 is that this is when Miami, New York, and possibly Brooklyn will all have multiple big contracts expiring and will need to decide whether they want to pay the insane repeater tax rates into the future, or take a step back to retool.

I'd be okay with the Raptors taking a shot with a core like that. In the meantime, they can still work to trade Bargnani, as long as whatever bad contract they bring back doesn't extend past 2015.

Of course, if the Raptors struggle out of the gate next year, then you're in blow-up mode. Get value for Lowry while you can, play hardball on Gay's next contract, use Johnson as trade bait (I agree with fleury that he's the Raptors' best bargaining chip, though I wouldn't move him yet).

Also, I'd seriously consider switching up head coach. I liked Casey in his first year, and hated him this year. If the team struggles out of the gate next season, then perhaps he should be first to go.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by octothorp

With the lineup as currently assembled, I'd say 50/50 is about right, maybe a little better.
Bargnani's value is going to be based on factors other than his recent play: particularly, someone desperate to move an even worse contract (like Boozer or P. Gasol).

I like the odds of Valanciunas being a beast next year. Another good offseason working with Sabonis and spending time in the weight room would do wonders. It looked to me he came back a few pounds heavier and stronger after his injury. The way he battled Drummond and Monroe last game was really impressive. His teammates need to look for him more. I think Gay is one of the few Raptors players who actually makes a point of feeding JV, possibly because he's developed that habit from playing with Marc Gasol.

Ross I still like. I think he can be an incredibly useful roleplayer, especially given that he doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, unlike most Raptors.

Lowry, I'm up in the air on. Those who have been on this thread a while know that I was a huge proponent of them getting Lowry, but I have a hard time evaluating if he's the right PG for this team. It's just such an isolation-heavy offense that it's difficult to see any PG really making a big impact. Maybe they just need a 3-point shooting PG, and run the offense through the wings? He shows good handles in the lane, decent awareness, and there's no reason why he can't be a good pick-and-roll PG, unless it's just a lack of comfort. He should make that his #1 offseason priority.

I don't really agree with the suggestion that most of the other crummy teams from a few years ago are riding high. In the east two years ago, the non-playoff teams were essentially the same as this year, with Brooklyn the only big exception, and Milwaukee improving from first team out to last team in. Cleveland is the only non-playoff team in the east that I think will improve faster than the Raptors.


I think the Raptors need to go with the current core into next season (the current core being Gay, DeRozan, Lowry, Johnson, Fields, Valanciunas, and Ross), and then make a decision in the first month about whether that's a core you can build around. If they show that they can be a .500 roster out of training camp, that's good enough to build around for the time being. Develop the current pieces, aim for the playoffs next year, and see if they can resign Lowry and Gay on a package deal for $30 million. That will set them up for a situation where in 2015 offseason, they'll have Gay, Lowry, DeRozan, Ross, Valanciunas, plus two more first-round draft picks all signed for about $50 million, and depending on where the cap is at, about $20 million to spend on one elite UFA. Hopefully by that time, this core will have had two years in the playoffs, and it becomes an appealing destination for a big UFA PF to come in and be the finishing piece. Let's say they make a pitch for Kevin Love at around $19 million (basically out-bidding everyone else, because that's what you've got to do to get him). Here's your hypothetical 2015-16 Raptors roster:
Valanciunas/MLE veteran
Love/2014 rookie
Gay/bi-annual exception veteran
DeRozan/Ross
Lowry/2015 rookie

As an alternate to going after a big UFA, they've got nearly $20 million in expiring contracts that they can move for some team looking to shed salary. The key to planning to contend around 2015 is that this is when Miami, New York, and possibly Brooklyn will all have multiple big contracts expiring and will need to decide whether they want to pay the insane repeater tax rates into the future, or take a step back to retool.

I'd be okay with the Raptors taking a shot with a core like that. In the meantime, they can still work to trade Bargnani, as long as whatever bad contract they bring back doesn't extend past 2015.

Of course, if the Raptors struggle out of the gate next year, then you're in blow-up mode. Get value for Lowry while you can, play hardball on Gay's next contract, use Johnson as trade bait (I agree with fleury that he's the Raptors' best bargaining chip, though I wouldn't move him yet).

Also, I'd seriously consider switching up head coach. I liked Casey in his first year, and hated him this year. If the team struggles out of the gate next season, then perhaps he should be first to go.

I agree with almost everything here, except 2 things: Lowry and being patient. Without a doubt if you keep this team together long enough, you'll probably get some decent results, but I don't think they'll develop further unless they get that star on the team either through a trade or signing. Three guys I'd try my hardest to get a good return for through a trade would be Bargnani, Lowry and Fields. I realize the contract of Fields may be the hardest to deal, but with teams in the NBA always looking to take on a reclaimation project, both Bargnani and Lowry at decent cap hits could be packaged for a decent centre, or a nice move up in this years draft if they have their eye on a particular player. The complication would be how Gay's play would be affected without his buddy Lowry on the team. Gay's a good second option, but I still think they're missing that first option which will open so much more for them.

[St. Pats]

Well it's over. Thank goodness. Another of my sports franchises that I root for that is mired in a long run of no playoffs and management stupidity. Outlook for next year is basically the same team with very little room for changes. Can't say I'm excited.

[bluejays]

I think there is definitely room for changes. When you think about it, there are a lot of mediocre guys who have higher upsides than they'll probably achieve, and GM's in the NBA fall head over heals into making mistakes for those guys, year after year. Rather than being excited about this off-season, I'm more curious as to what they do because there are a lot of options of who can potentially be moved. The reason why I'm not excited is because the league is so top heavy that even if the Raps were to get the #1 pick and also sign a legit superstar, I still don't think they can truly compete for a championship with Miami or such a team. It's a huge knock on the league when a team can buy a championship, while a team that wants to build from the ground up will probably never make it.