Use of Native American Imagery in Sports

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Sure when lumped together you're going to get those results. I think if they asked about "Redskins" specifically (and excluded more innocuous names like "Chiefs" and "Braves") that the numbers would look much different.

Here's a good litmus test: would you ever approach a Native Canadian and call them "Redskin"? If not, why not?

From the same SI article.

Asked if they were offended by the name Redskins, 75% of Native American respondents in SI's poll said they were not, and even on reservations, where Native American culture and influence are perhaps felt most intensely, 62% said they weren't offended. Overall, 69% of Native American respondents -- and 57% of those living on reservations -- feel it's O.K. for the Washington Redskins to continue using the name. "I like the name Redskins," says Mark Timentwa, 50, a member of the Colville Confederated Tribes in Washington State who lives on the tribes' reservation. "A few elders find it offensive, but my mother loves the Redskins."
Only 29% of Native Americans, and 40% living on reservations, thought Snyder should change his team's name. Such indifference implies a near total disconnect between Native American activists and the general Native American population on this issue. "To a lot of the younger folks the name Redskins is tied to the football team, and it doesn't represent anything more than the team," says Roland McCook, a member of the tribal council of the Ute tribe in Fort Duchesne, Utah.

[JiriHrdina]

Isn't 29 and 40 per cent enough to justify changing it? That's a sizable group that finds it objectionable.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by jirihrdina

isn't 29 and 40 per cent enough to justify changing it? That's a sizable group that finds it objectionable.

50 + 1

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Isn't 29 and 40 per cent enough to justify changing it? That's a sizable group that finds it objectionable.

Read the article. I just find it interesting that so many don't find it objectionable. Please don't confuse the quotes I'm posting as my own opinion.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Read the article. I just find it interesting that so many don't find it objectionable. Please don't confuse the quotes I'm posting as my own opinion.

No I know - I was just countering anyone that thinks this story provides reasons not to do away with the names.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

50 + 1

I think this is a case where a majority isn't required. If a sizable amount of people find something that seems offensive, offensive, then get rid of it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think this is a case where a majority isn't required. If a sizable amount of people find something that seems offensive, offensive, then get rid of it.

Yeah I know, I was just ####ting.

That is why I wonder if it is a problem. If natives dislike being called Indians. I don't know any, well none well enough that I would ask.

[Badger Bob]

Asked if they were offended by the name Redskins, 75% of Native American respondents in SI's poll said they were not, and even on reservations, where Native American culture and influence are perhaps felt most intensely, 62% said they weren't offended. Overall, 69% of Native American respondents -- and 57% of those living on reservations -- feel it's O.K. for the Washington Redskins to continue using the name. "I like the name Redskins," says Mark Timentwa, 50, a member of the Colville Confederated Tribes in Washington State who lives on the tribes' reservation. "A few elders find it offensive, but my mother loves the Redskins."
Only 29% of Native Americans, and 40% living on reservations, thought Snyder should change his team's name. Such indifference implies a near total disconnect between Native American activists and the general Native American population on this issue. "To a lot of the younger folks the name Redskins is tied to the football team, and it doesn't represent anything more than the team," says Roland McCook, a member of the tribal council of the Ute tribe in Fort Duchesne, Utah.

So, then this issue is controversial not because a majority of the effected group is offended, but that a majority of white liberals are offended. So, in effect, the Natives instead become a mascot for a left wing cause.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think this is a case where a majority isn't required. If a sizable amount of people find something that seems offensive, offensive, then get rid of it.

This logic is flawed and overly simplistic. If it were used, slavery would have never been abolished, for example. More than sizable number of people did find abolition of slavery and discrimination against black people offensive at that time. "Inappropriate" is becoming the most cardinal sin word in today's media. Someone will always find something inappropriate. The article in today's Herald was telling about a very good and dedicated school drama teacher who gave his class a list of jokes and asked them to pick one that they'd like to "play-out". Jokes did not have profanities nor they were sexual in nature. Regardless, one parent found them inappropriate and the teacher has been asked to leave pending investigation. This is truly sad.

Use of native American imagery in sports is historically established and widely accepted by native Americans themselves as appropriate. Yes, it is also controversial, I agree. But the only right way to faze it out is through public education and sufficient time. Eventually, if there is enough public pressure, this faze-out will succeed.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

This logic is flawed and overly simplistic. If it were used, slavery would have never been abolished, for example. More than sizable number of people did find abolition of slavery and discrimination against black people offensive at that time. "Inappropriate" is becoming the most cardinal sin word in today's media. Someone will always find something inappropriate. The article in today's Herald was telling about a very good and dedicated school drama teacher who gave his class a list of jokes and asked them to pick one that they'd like to "play-out". Jokes did not have profanities nor they were sexual in nature. Regardless, one parent found them inappropriate and the teacher has been asked to leave pending investigation. This is truly sad.

Use of native American imagery in sports is historically established and widely accepted by native Americans themselves as appropriate. Yes, it is also controversial, I agree. But the only right way to faze it out is through public education and sufficient time. Eventually, if there is enough public pressure, this faze-out will succeed.

Your example is incorrect. Slavery was overwhelmingly supported in the states that had slavery, it was a small minority that were against it n those specific states. A majority was not required to overturn slavery, one could easily argue that the pro-slavery candidates in the 1860 election got 60% of the vote nationwide including the free states. Slavery is an example of when a minority of people found slavery offensive and changed it against the will of the majority.

[CaptainYooh]

I know. But there was a sizable number of people that found that offensive regardless of the majority/minority count. Majority rules – is the main principle of democracy, usually, although it has many flaws. Yet, "minority rules" that is becoming our political new reality is quite a bit worse. My point was only about the approach to changing the use of imagery some people find offensive. I believe that "just outlaw it" is the wrong approach.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I know. But there was a sizable number of people that found that offensive regardless of the majority/minority count. Majority rules – is the main principle of democracy, usually, although it has many flaws. Yet, "minority rules" that is becoming our political new reality is quite a bit worse. My point was only about the approach to changing the use of imagery some people find offensive. I believe that "just outlaw it" is the wrong approach.

Except with the slavery thing, in that case it was minority rules. Minority rights should never be left to the whim of the majority. There has long been precedent where the majority has been overruled in cases involving minority rights.

Outside of the fact that Dan Snyder wants to make some money, I am at a loss as to why the name has to remain the Redskins anyway. The slippery slope argument is bs, these issues will be judged individually. The other reasons I have heard as to why the name should not be changed are:

1) Damn liberals, they ruin everything; and
2) Are there not bigger problems to worry about

If there are other reasons, I have missed them.

[Vulcan]

That a majority of FN people aren't offended by sports teams logos just shows that they are not aware of the history behind them. This is not surprising when we have done everything we can to obliterate native history and culture.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

That a majority of FN people aren't offended by sports teams logos just shows that they are not aware of the history behind them. This is not surprising when we have done everything we can to obliterate native history and culture.

Or it shows that they have real problems like alcoholism/addiction, too many kids and no real future, and thus don't have time to be offended by things that don't impact them in any tangible way.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by gargamel

I think he meant more in the context of how you'd describe the plot of Pocahontas to a Native. Would you say, "so there was Redskin girl..."? Similarly, if you had to go to a reservation, would you be embarrassed to be wearing a shirt with this logo?

I wouldn't be if I didn't have a political reason for wearing it.

Furthermore, since as far as I know, nobody actually uses the term 'redskin' to describe natives (went to university in Lethbridge, never heard the term once) at all, much less in a derogatory way, I don't know how offensive it actually is to have that be the team name.

If you want to say it's in poor taste, I'll go with that. But since it isn't being used to oppress anyone, who cares? If anything, natives should be impressed that they're considered the only ethnic group to be badass enough to play football. Every other human based football team is either a profession or an ideology.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Or it shows that they have real problems like alcoholism/addiction, too many kids and no real future, and thus don't have time to be offended by things that don't impact them in any tangible way.

You don't think that stealing parts of their culture and turning it into a comic book level of disrespect has something to do with their self esteem problems leading to their other problems.

Our culture has been so pervasive in putting down FNs people that we don't even recognize it when it's put in front of us.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You don't think that stealing parts of their culture and turning it into a comic book level of disrespect has something to do with their self esteem problems leading to their other problems.

Our culture has been so pervasive in putting down FNs people that we don't even recognize it when it's put in front of us.

Yep, it's all our fault. Never mind that I've never said or done anything to put down a native person. Nor has anyone I've ever met. Or their parents. It's always somebody else's fault.

Disrespecting cultures on a comic book level is not a uniquely native situation. Every culture takes its share of abuse. I can tell you I've made about a billion more Asian driving jokes than Native jokes. Canada basically used Japanese workers as slaves to build our railroads. Yet I don't see crowds of Japanese guys chain smoking outside bars in downtown Lethbridge at noon on a Wednesday. Why is that? If I were to guess, I'd say it has NOTHING to do with the football team in DC being called the Redskins.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Yep, it's all our fault. Never mind that I've never said or done anything to put down a native person. Nor has anyone I've ever met. Or their parents. It's always somebody else's fault.

Disrespecting cultures on a comic book level is not a uniquely native situation. Every culture takes its share of abuse. I can tell you I've made about a billion more Asian driving jokes than Native jokes. Canada basically used Japanese workers as slaves to build our railroads. Yet I don't see crowds of Japanese guys chain smoking outside bars in downtown Lethbridge at noon on a Wednesday. Why is that? If I were to guess, I'd say it has NOTHING to do with the football team in DC being called the Redskins.

We never tried or had the ability to destroy the Chinese or Japanese cultures. You making racist jokes is one thing but when it becomes ingrain in our culture as openly acceptable
is another thing.

You can't take some natives sitting outside bars as representative of natives. It just shows where your head is at.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

We never tried or had the ability to destroy the Chinese or Japanese cultures. You making racist jokes is one thing but when it becomes ingrain in our culture as openly acceptable
is another thing.

You can't take some natives sitting outside bars as representative of natives. It just shows where your head is at.

I'm not saying that example is representative of Natives; I am saying it's representative of the problems that need dealing with. But what's more likely to result in a positive step? Changing the Blackhawk logo or having fewer kids? (This, btw, applies to everyone)

And stop saying we. You and I haven't done anything.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I'm not saying that example is representative of Natives; I am saying it's representative of the problems that need dealing with. But what's more likely to result in a positive step? Changing the Blackhawk logo or having fewer kids? (This, btw, applies to everyone)

And stop saying we. You and I haven't done anything.

Because there are other problems doesn't mean we ignore this one.

We as in our representative government have done this.