Our drafting vs development

[genetic_phreek]

I was looking back on our drafting and development history and of course it's quite depressing. Through the years, people have said its our drafting, some have said its development, and some have said it's both. I'm leaning towards the development in the AHL. Look at the guys that are successful in juniors and as soon as they play with our farm team, their career almost dies there.

[Sakari]

As far as I'm concerned, Feaster has proven he is excellent at drafting. Just look at the 2011 picks. We're all worried about the 2012 picks, especially Janko, but I have faith in Feaster's choice.

[Miniac]

Originally Posted by Sakari

As far as I'm concerned, Feaster has proven he is excellent at drafting. Just look at the 2011 picks. We're all worried about the 2012 picks, especially Janko, but I have faith in Feaster's choice.

John Weisbrod and the rest of hockey operations also deserves credit.

[North East Goon]

Originally Posted by Sakari

As far as I'm concerned, Feaster has proven he is excellent at drafting. Just look at the 2011 picks. We're all worried about the 2012 picks, especially Janko, but I have faith in Feaster's choice.

How do you know those were good picks?

[Miniac]

^^ He used his magic crystal ball

[Sakari]

No, I pay attention to our prospects development, and they are all doing very well. That doesn't really mean that they will be NHL stars, but it means that we have promising future NHLers. Something that Sutter and his crew never gave us. Besides Phaneuf.

[JJsChaos]

Originally Posted by Miniac

John Weisbrod and the rest of hockey operations also deserves credit.

This

[dammage79]

Development is the realm of concern now. The last two drafts were pretty good in most peoples eyes. Also another area of concern is the number (or lack there of ATM) of contract spots available for guys like Ramage, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Broissoit and Arnold. Two are needed almost immediately as Ramage will be turning pro at the end of the college hockey season and a possibility of Arnold turning as well. They also need a couple more spots to sign other FA college players if they wanted to sign more. When is the date that College players become available this year? Because that will likely be the time the Flames make the bulk of their moves this year.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Sakari

No, I pay attention to our prospects development.

... and how do you do that? Do you actually watch all of our prospects games and have a criteria by which you measure play improvement accounting for age appropriateness, qualcomp, qualteam and numerous other factors? More likely you're just looking at the stat lines.

Feaster hasn't proven he is excellent at drafting, until we see whether the guys he drafted are actually able to provide meaningful contributions in the NHL you just can't say that. We won't know the quality of his drafting for another 4 years or so by then we'll be able to see a bust/graduation rate (along with initial valuation of the graduates) and compare it to the rest of the field.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

IMO, you can look at every single AHL team and see them littered with past CHL stars that haven't been able to transition to the pro game.

For example, I saw one just last week. Zack Phillips from the Saint John Sea Dogs. Many of you probably remember him. He put up 219 points in 192 CHL games. Since he's turned pro with the Houston Aeros, he's only put up 3 goals and 14 assists in 52 games.

The Heat are no different. The AHL tends to weed out those players who are prepared, ready, and skilled enough for the pro game and those who aren't.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

IMO, you can look at every single AHL team and see them littered with past CHL stars that haven't been able to transition to the pro game.

For example, I saw one just last week. Zack Phillips from the Saint John Sea Dogs. Many of you probably remember him. He put up 219 points in 192 CHL games. Since he's turned pro with the Houston Aeros, he's only put up 3 goals and 14 assists in 52 games.

The Heat are no different. The AHL tends to weed out those players who are prepared, ready, and skilled enough for the pro game and those who aren't.

The Heat (and before that, Quad City) screw it up at an astounding level. Reinhart was one of the best skating, two-way centres in the WHL. He comes to the AHL and he's originally relegated to a nonsense 4th line role in favour of veterans like Kolanos and Walter.

The same can be said for the likes of Wahl, Horak, Nemisz. These players have not developed at all since transitioning to professional hockey, and for the most part have actually regressed. It's a serious issue that management needs to stop ignoring.

The Flames are ######ing player development at a level never before seen.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Heat (and before that, Quad City) screw it up at an astounding level. Reinhart was one of the best skating, two-way centres in the WHL. He comes to the AHL and he's originally relegated to a nonsense 4th line role in favour of veterans like Kolanos and Walter.

The same can be said for the likes of Wahl, Horak, Nemisz. These players have not developed at all since transitioning to professional hockey, and for the most part have actually regressed. It's a serious issue that management needs to stop ignoring.

The Flames are ######ing player development at a level never before seen.

Do you watch the heat or are you just basing these thoughts on stats?

Reinhart is developing just fine.
Wahl was de-railed by injury and a lack of focus.
Horak is doing fine as well and has already seen NHL action despite the fact he's only turned pro a year ago.
Nemisz just may not have the tools to be an NHL player.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Do you watch the heat or are you just basing these thoughts on stats?

Reinhart is developing just fine.
Wahl was de-railed by injury and a lack of focus.
Horak is doing fine as well and has already seen NHL action despite the fact he's only turned pro a year ago.
Nemisz just may not have the tools to be an NHL player.

It just seems that there are constant excuses for our prospects failing. Today it's that Howse is an awful skater, or that Wahl was never the same after Volpatti crushed him.

The only player the Flames have developed since Phaneuf is Brodie. No team is producing less quality and less quantity than the Flames right now. I don't know how this can be denied when you look around the league.

Soon we're going to start making excuses about Baertschi, saying he was never that good and benefited from playing on a good Winterhawks team, or that Gaudreau was always too small and never had a chance at the NHL.

I want to make changes before it's too late, because it's just so predictable right now.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Heat (and before that, Quad City) screw it up at an astounding level. Reinhart was one of the best skating, two-way centres in the WHL. He comes to the AHL and he's originally relegated to a nonsense 4th line role in favour of veterans like Kolanos and Walter.

The same can be said for the likes of Wahl, Horak, Nemisz. These players have not developed at all since transitioning to professional hockey, and for the most part have actually regressed. It's a serious issue that management needs to stop ignoring.

The Flames are ######ing player development at a level never before seen.

I agree with you 100%. I've watched the Heat play a few times when it was televised and it seems our "prospects" wasn't even noticeable. They did not get utilized and seemed to regressed in their play.

[bubbsy]

not going to pretend i know what it takes to take teens and make them nhl'ers, or going to grade our ahl coaching, etc, since i don't really follow or watch them play.

However, the handling of Irving has me severely concerned as to whether the system is in place to take our prospects and turn them into every day NHLers.

Brodie, has proven to be an excellent output of the system of course, so just need to wait and see i suppose.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

It just seems that there are constant excuses for our prospects failing. Today it's that Howse is an awful skater, or that Wahl was never the same after Volpatti crushed him.

The only player the Flames have developed since Phaneuf is Brodie. No team is producing less quality and less quantity than the Flames right now. I don't know how this can be denied when you look around the league.

Soon we're going to start making excuses about Baertschi, saying he was never that good and benefited from playing on a good Winterhawks team, or that Gaudreau was always too small and never had a chance at the NHL.

I want to make changes before it's too late, because it's just so predictable right now.

They aren't excuses. They are reasons.

Howse has failed because he hasn't taken being a pro seriously. He's shown up to two straight camps out of shape. That is unacceptable and there is no one to blame but him.

This is what you get with these guys. There are reasons why they are available in the later rounds - and a lot of it has to do with the fact that they do one or two things really well (Howse has an unreal shot) but need to round out their games. The rare guys that make it figure it out - the rest of them become minor league scorers or fade into the sunset.

No one should have ever expected Howse to be a likely NHL player. He was always a long shot.

Sven will be just fine. He has elite skills in all the areas you need them in. The Flames haven't had a prospect like him in their system in a decade.

Johnny G is a different kettle of fish. I think his amazing hockey IQ will help him make up for his size, but he is also far from a sure thing.

You are calling for change based on some really poor examples.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

It just seems that there are constant excuses for our prospects failing. Today it's that Howse is an awful skater, or that Wahl was never the same after Volpatti crushed him.

The only player the Flames have developed since Phaneuf is Brodie. No team is producing less quality and less quantity than the Flames right now. I don't know how this can be denied when you look around the league.

Soon we're going to start making excuses about Baertschi, saying he was never that good and benefited from playing on a good Winterhawks team, or that Gaudreau was always too small and never had a chance at the NHL.

I want to make changes before it's too late, because it's just so predictable right now.

I'm unsure just yet how if what you believe to be too predictable is the fault of the Heat or how management is responsible for ######ing the development of Baertschi and Gaudreau.

Baertschi is playing for the Flames and very far from a bust merely learning to adjust to the NHL. Played for the Heat when the NHL was locked out, did you prefer he play in Europe.

Gaudreau is still playing NCAA College and has not played a single game for the Flames or the Heat.

So you want to make changes again because something may or may not happen. Not so certain armegeddon is upon us as you seem to be claiming.

[sa226]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The Heat (and before that, Quad City) screw it up at an astounding level. Reinhart was one of the best skating, two-way centres in the WHL. He comes to the AHL and he's originally relegated to a nonsense 4th line role in favour of veterans like Kolanos and Walter.

The same can be said for the likes of Wahl, Horak, Nemisz. These players have not developed at all since transitioning to professional hockey, and for the most part have actually regressed. It's a serious issue that management needs to stop ignoring.

The Flames are ######ing player development at a level never before seen.

While you may have a point, you say this like their path to the NHL is a foregone conclusion and all the Flames have to do is not screw it up.

It has as much to do with the players themselves as it does with the organization. To go along with a little luck.

This is my own opinion, but I believe Backlund was developed the right way, as well as Brodie.

The other guys are still projects (aside from Wahl and maybe Neimez) and their NHL career is far from over.

On the luck side, I really believe that if it wasn't for a few terrible knee injuries, John Negrin would be playing in our top 6 this year.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

They aren't excuses. They are reasons.

Howse has failed because he hasn't taken being a pro seriously. He's shown up to two straight camps out of shape. That is unacceptable and there is no one to blame but him.

This is what you get with these guys. There are reasons why they are available in the later rounds - and a lot of it has to do with the fact that they do one or two things really well (Howse has an unreal shot) but need to round out their games. The rare guys that make it figure it out - the rest of them become minor league scorers or fade into the sunset.

No one should have ever expected Howse to be a likely NHL player. He was always a long shot.

Sven will be just fine. He has elite skills in all the areas you need them in. The Flames haven't had a prospect like him in their system in a decade.

Johnny G is a different kettle of fish. I think his amazing hockey IQ will help him make up for his size, but he is also far from a sure thing.

You are calling for change based on some really poor examples.

I'm calling for change based on 20 years of prospect failure. I don't know how you guys can be content with this.

You guys may not like my reasons for having zero faith in our player development system, but yet you provide no reason to be optimistic about the future. Who is the best player the Flames have drafted in the last 20 years, Cory Stillman? Even dumb luck should get better results than what this organization is doing right now.

You place a lot of the blame on Howse for coming to camp out of shape, and that's true. He shoulders a lot of the blame. But where were the Flames during the off-season, working with him, ensuring that he was ready for the demands of professional hockey? It always seems like it's too little, too late for this franchise.

We probably should be looking to trade our first round pick, because we all know it's not going to amount to a player of value for this organization.

[Fischy13]

I agree with the Development team should be under review. You don't "miss" drafting that many times. Any succesful players the Flames have had, made the jump without going through the AHL rigors. They were developed from outside the Flames organization in the WHL or NCAA. I don't recall Phaneuf in the "A", he's likely been our own recent best, probably because the Flames Development team didn't get a chance to lay their hands on him. THey seem to turn everything into a 4th line plugger. I think is should seriously be looked into. The Draft team had a minor facelift, time for this group too.